Schofield find !

Levallois · #1 12-04-2010, 09:22 PM

If you've seen this post before then I apologize but I'm really excited about it.

I was walking through the show today looking for a WWI era 1903 Springfield when there is was - a first model Schofield with an untouched barrel and all the markings - serial number 2305 with the US on the grip, and L and P under the barrel and an L on the frame. There also may be a L on the cylinder but it is hard to see. It's obviously not perfect and is missing some parts but with only 3000 made I had to have it -

The bad news is that's it's missing the ejector, latch spring and mainspring among other things and I can't get the darn grips off - they are tight but the screw just turns without tightening or loosening anything. The good news is that the revolver only cost me $1250 ! I haven't seen any Schofield even close to this cheap ever and to get one with the original uncut barrel? I'm happier than a pig in slop. I don't know if I'll be able to find the parts but I got plenty of time to look. Thank you for looking and if anyone knows of someone with Schofield parts I'd love to hear about it.

John

TACC1 · #2 12-04-2010, 09:51 PM

John,
Good snag! You were home when opportunity knocked, for sure.
I'm not sure if Dave Chicoine has the parts, but he does restorations
on old S&W's. I think it's "The Old West Gunsmith" or something
similar. Good luck, TACC1.

badguybuster · #3 12-04-2010, 09:57 PM

Dang! Thats nice...but $1250???? Maybe I'm to greedy???

Levallois · #4 12-04-2010, 10:39 PM

I guess $1250 seem like alot of money until you start looking at original First Model Schofield revolvers with uncut barrels. I've never seen one below $5000 in any condition. Some of the cut barrel ones (not Wells Fargo marked) can be had for $2500-ish. Hell, even the Uberti repros are 800-900. At any rate, I thought the price was worth taking a chance on because I've always wanted one and I actually had the money for once.

I appreciate the comments.

John

Dnovo1 · #5 12-04-2010, 11:07 PM

Nice gun. And don't let anyone say that there are uncut Schofields out there for not a lot of money. Not true. Good find, and enjoy the gun. Dave

opoefc · #6 12-05-2010, 01:08 AM

You can replace the missing main spring with one from an American model. You can loosen the grip nut from the grip screw with a little trick I learned years ago. Place a fire .22RF case head down on your work bench. Place the grip nut on top of the open end of the fired .22RF case. Apply pressure to the gun to hold the grip down tight over the fired case mouth, with the grip screw centered on the open case mouth. Turn the grip screw counter clockwise while applying as much downward pressure as you can on the grip over the .22RF case. The case mouth will grab gainst the grip screw and hold it long enough for you to loosen the grip screw. If the extractor is missing, probably the extractor rod, springs, etc. are also missing. Only way to solve that is to find a junker that has the parts you need. $1250 is a fair price for what you got, but you may need another $1250 to put the gun right, however that would still be a good buy for a US Schofield. Good Luck, Ed.

Levallois · #7 12-05-2010, 12:18 PM

I figured that I would have to put some money into this gun but that I'd still be way ahead of the game. I sent an email to David Chicoine to see if he had the parts, would put them on for me, and make sure the gun functioned correctly. I don't want to refurbish or restore it but keep it as found.

The guy that I bought it from said it was found in New Mexico at a ranch which is interesting since the cavalry units that would have been issued this gun were stationed in New Mexico at Fort Windgate near Gallup (4th and 9th cavalry) and at Fort Concho in west texas near San Angelo (10th cavalry) during the Apache Wars.

John

gjamison · #8 12-05-2010, 03:35 PM

heres mine

Levallois · #9 12-05-2010, 03:48 PM

What a beauty!

opoefc · #10 12-05-2010, 04:28 PM

Levallois, According to other posters on this Forum, who have made recent contact with David Chicoine, he has a 3 year back log on work. Ed. #15

Levallois · #11 12-05-2010, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opoefc

Levallois, According to other posters on this Forum, who have made recent contact with David Chicoine, he has a 3 year back log on work. Ed. #15

Holy schmoly! That's a heck of a lot of backlog.

Dnovo1 · #12 12-05-2010, 05:43 PM

Okay. May I offer some basics as a long time S&W collector in general and as an aficionado of Model 3s in particular?

The top break S&W centerfires were the first of their kind, predating the 1873 Colts by about four years. The first models, retroactively known as the Americans, and then the Russians in various iterations were very popular and are avidly collected today. They were themselves superceded by New Model 3s which were built even after the swing out cylinders became available.

The most 'inexpensive' of the family to purchase are the New Model 3s. The Schofields have always been very expensive, particularly in both high grade and in 'uncut' form. They were produced in much smaller numbers, are distinct in construction from their brethren, and have a certain cache as built as Cavalry pistols with all but a few used in the Indian Wars and many by the fabled Buffalo Soldiers.

A 'mint' Schofield is virtually impossible to find, and would fetch an astronomical price. After they were sold off by the Army, they were almost universally cut down and 'ridden hard and put away wet.' Even uncut guns that have a lot of finish will have a lot of wear, as they were used, not put in a drawer.

So any uncut gun will bring the $1250 paid here, and this one has most of its important features intact. I recently picked up a First Model that was 100% intact, functions flawlessly, all matching, cartouches, and with a little more than half its finish. I thought it was a steal at $4000. I have a Second Model in like shape, with a lot more finish that was another 'steal' (IMHO) at a few grand more.

So, you did real well. I would wait for David to find the time to fix the mechanical issues, and you will still have a bargain even after he is paid for his work.

There are only a small number of intact, uncut guns out there. Enjoy yours and don't worry about what you paid, you did just great. Dave

jag312 · #13 12-05-2010, 08:05 PM

I'm not very knowledgeable about these early Smith & Wesson revolvers. Can the parts from an Uberti replica of a Schofield be used or modified to be used as replacement parts for an original Schofield?

Dnovo1 · #14 12-05-2010, 08:27 PM

See Dave C's book on this point. Very few, if any. Dave

Levallois · #15 12-05-2010, 10:22 PM

I've contacted Mr. Chicoine and he has agreed to evaluate my Schofield for repair/parts. I'll send it to him this week. Thanks to all! More to follow ......

Levallois · #16 12-06-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dnovo1

There are only a small number of intact, uncut guns out there. Dave

I wonder what the actual count is for unmolested first models?

John

twaits · #17 12-09-2010, 01:13 PM

Good choice in sending it to Dave. You won't be sorry.

Levallois · #18 12-10-2010, 06:28 PM

Thanks. I sent it to Dave today to determine if he has the missing parts and to see how much it will take to put it back into functioning condition. The finish will remain untouched.

Philing · #19 12-11-2010, 04:34 AM

I have got one :

I have requested the letter of authenticity and it appears that it was originally blued. It has probably been resold on the civilian market as many of them and has been renickeld for that purpose.

Levallois · #20 12-13-2010, 08:44 AM

That is a beauty! How did it end up in France?

John

Philing · #21 12-13-2010, 02:53 PM

It comes from Belgium !
I bought it from an antique firearms dealer who have very nice items, mainly coming from US.

reinhard · #22 12-13-2010, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philing

It comes from Belgium !
I bought it from an antique firearms dealer who have very nice items, mainly coming from US.

there is one belgian antique dealer that imports this quality antique guns ,wellknown all over europe , I purchased my guns from the same antiques dealer , nice to see that gun on the forum , I had it in my hands

Göring's S&W · #23 12-15-2010, 09:54 AM

I'm far from an expert on these BUT, IMO, and as others have said, you did good. IMO you could invest in it 100% of what you already have, and if it was made to function by Chicoine, it would be a good deal at $2500.

The easy way to tell how you did after the gun is done or at least after you get the work estimate is try to find another one in that price range, that has that much going for it. I bet you won't find another unless you're incredibly lucky.

Be sure to update us as progress is made....Thanks for sharing your story.

Levallois · #24 12-17-2010, 12:13 PM

Mr. Chicoine has looked over my gun and it is repairable. It's going to cost more than I bought the gun for but still ALOT less than the value of an uncut First Model so I'm having the work done. It will be at least a year before I get the gun back but I will post photos at that time. I appreciate the forums help and encouragement! Happy Holidays.

John

Snafu12 · #25 04-02-2012, 12:06 PM

Any Update?

deadin · #26 04-02-2012, 12:56 PM

Here is a "discussion" I participated in a number of years ago about Schofields that may be interesting to some.....

First the statement posted by a contributer:

Quote:

S&W had basically developed the breaktop 44s to compete for or replace Remingtons huge export/military sales. There was little money to be made but for Russia. They would pay in gold. Major Schofield was an insider trading military officer. He saw the development of the Russian and American models and the #3. He decided to buy up a S&W sales distributorship, redesign a cavalry revolver and clean up on a military contract. The revolver had HUGE logistical ammunition and jamming problems. The Schofield was a disaster. Major Schofield shot himself soon after the total unsuitability for military use Schofields were sold off at auction. The Russians, Turkish, Japanese and other military contracts liked their S&W breaktops in other calibers besides the 45 S&W or Schofield. A total failure/disaster and death for the creator of a poor design, a logistical nightmare and a unsuitable for horseback due to either jamming of empty cases or automatic ejection when NOT desired. It seems most of them were sold to Wells Fargo after they were shortened and nickel plated. Cheap, from Bannerman.

My response to the above:

Quote:

And just what alternative history have you been reading? Louis L'Amour or Colt SAA websites?
Just what huge Remington export/military sales were they competing with? Remington's rolling block rifles and single shot pistols? Funny way to compete, a pistol for a rifle. Or are you talking about the unconfirmed Egyptian order for 10,000 Remington M1875 SAA, which to the best of anybody's knowledge was never filled.
As for Major Schofield buying a dealership, I've not heard of that before. Have you documentation? I would like to advance my knowledge.
HUGE logistical ammunition and jamming problems? Ammo interchangeability, yes. Jamming? Could happen, still does with Hand Ejectors if not properly trained. But HUGE? The Army continued to carry them into the 1880's The Army tried to order 8000 more in 1878 but S&W wasn't interested as they had their hands full filling Russians orders and launching their NM#3. The original order was for 3000 1st models and 5000 2nd models, and was filled by S&W. At the same time the Army had taken delivery of 15,000 Colts, so if the new order had been filled, Schofields would have outnumbered Colts in service. The Schofield wasn't so much as withdrawn as it was no longer stocked in the arsenals. (Some were still in use by regular Army units as of 1887 per Col. Chs. Pate).
When the Schofield was finally withdrawn from Army service. (Yes, mainly due to the ammunition problem) many saw service with State militias as late as the Spanish American War Many went to dealers and were sold in the civilian market. 600 went to Wells Fargo. (600 out of 8000 is not "most" and therefore are a desirable collectors item today.)
As for being "unsuitable for use on horseback" I have found one officer's report that the latch "could" be tripped in the holster and therefore cause an unintended ejection when drawn. Other officers admired the rapidity and ease of loading while on horseback. Most negative comments I have been able to find is that many thought the Schofield to be "too complicated" and that rapid reloading was not that big a deal. Of course this was an Army that was still issuing what was basically a modified Civil War musket to its troops because they might waste ammo with a repeater.
It has never been determined that Major Schofield's suicide was related to the dropping of the revolver by the Army or the failure of one of his many other inventions. He was depressed by the failure "of one of his inventions" when he took his life.

VaRecon · #27 04-02-2012, 01:32 PM

Nothing wrong with a little character marks on such a gorgeous revolver.
Great find, congrats.

And to Dean; It takes someone knowledgeable and proud to defend a time honored S&W in the face of scrutiny. I especially like the argument about the "unsuitability" for riding horseback, as to my understanding the top break design was made for easy ejection and reloading while mounted as opposed to the slower single action. Regardless of Major Schofield's personal depression he was still an innovator, a businessman and a soldier in the United States Army which is more then enough to command my respect.