Does anyone have any idea what model(s) of Lemon Squeezer would be proper for the dull lime green box. What years were this color of box used by S&W ?
thanks

WB

I've never been able to say for sure what color box is correct for any model Safety Hammerless. I think it was just a case of what ever box was available when a gun was completed and ready for boxing. The instructions printed inside the lid for opening the barrel latches is the only clue as to what model was in the box, as the method was not the same for all models. Ed.

I've never seen a Safety Hammerless box that I've thought of as Lime green, but color descriptions are hard to define. If you are talking about what I think of as mustard yellow colored boxes they were used almost exclusively for 32 Safety Hammerless revolvers from 1888 till the early 1920s. Then the 32 Safetys were shipped in a marroon lift top or dispalay box until sometime in the early 1930 when they were shipped in a blue box. The blue box is very rare because they were not selling many by then. The 32 and 38 single actions were shipped in a several shades of green box, but darker colored not lime green. I've owned well over 100 Safety Hammerless boxes with original labels and a few of the 32 boxes were yellowish with almost a green tinge. Maybe that is what you're asking about. Ed is correct in that S&W shipped their guns in what ever they had at hand and we should never say never, but at that time they were making their own boxes in house and I believe that when they needed new boxes they just made them. The mustard yellow 32 Safety boxes in my opinion (and you know what opinions are worth) maintained the most consistant color over a long period of any of the S&W top breaks.
Mark

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Mark Connot

Now that I look at it again, I'd say you're right - it isn't lime green. Not sure I'd call it mustard yellow either. It is definitly more of a dull green than a yellow.
Thanks for the replies...

WB

WB,
There are small size differances among the boxes for the various models. S&W made the boxes to fit each of them exactly and there were differances in frame size.
for instance, The 3 in Single action box was 7 3/4 x 3 1/8 x 1 1/4.
The 3" 32 Double Action box was 7 5/8 x 3 1/4 x 1 5/16.
The 3" Safety box was 7 3/4 x 3 1/2 x 1 3/8. For the 3.5 inch barrel length of each box in each model was increased by 3/8 of and inch. The 38 3.25 in barrel SA box was 8 3/4 x 3 3/8 x 1 1/2 (slightly shorter for the 3rd model 38 SA). The 3 1/4 inch Safety and DA boxes were exactly the sme size, 8 3/8 x 3 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches. For each inch increas in barrel length the box was increased in length by one inch.

I know that people will say that they stuck them in any box they had. And I think starting just before WWII that may have been true. But in the era that the old top breaks were made there was more attention to detail and fit and finish. Grips were fitted individually to each gun and boxes were made specifically for each model and barrel length, and were color coded for each model. I'm sure there were exceptions, but I believe they were few and far between. I've looked at literally hundreds and hundreds of Safety Hammerless boxes and have come to the conclusion that with the exception of the very first few years of manufacture up until the early 1890s S&W printed the caliber, model, and barrel length at the top of the operation instructions inside the top lid. I also believe that they started doing this with the 32 Safety Hammerless boxes a few years earlier than the 38 Safety boxes. I have found almost no 32 boxes without that info at the top of the inside of the lid. From what I can see, the 38 boxes started with the 3rd model or shortly thereafter. I have never found a 38 first model box with caliber and model name at the top of the instructions inside the lid. But there aren't very many 38 Safety first model boxes left to look at, so the evidence is inconclusive. I also have found it rare to find a Safety Hammerless box with out the end label. It is somewhat common to find the Single Action boxes and early DA boxes without the end label and my guess is that they improved the glue formula by the time they started making the Safety Hammerless guns. This is probably all more than you wanted to know. And it may be only the meanderings of an idle mind, but it came from a lot of observation, passion, and I hope logical thought process.
Mark

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Mark Connot

For those of us who have interests in Safety Hammerless revolvers, Mark has done us a great service in his above postings, in putting in one thread almost all you will ever need to know about pre WW2 Safety Hammerless boxes and their sizes. Post war boxes were the standard two piece "sunburst" blue boxes for the few .38 Safetys shipped after 1945. Ed.

Cheese.., **** Mark.., I'd have a headache about now. I'd need a nap. Thank you for all your effort. I don't think many collectors have all this information at their fingertips. Whew! Dang. Mike #283

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Mike Maher #283

SingleShot1891,

Is this the color you are talking about? Bottom center 2 inch Safety Hammerless?





If so, I will check the date on that one for you.

Terry

Terry - Bingo ! that's the color. That is the exact same box I just aquired. On the top of the inside lid it has the normal firing and dis-assembly instructions. On the bottom of the inside it has the warning about imposter aftermarket grips. Like yours mine is for a nickel 3 inch...


Mark - Thanks for your wealth of knowledge on this subject. It never ceases to amaze me the info on this forum. I'd say you are the box-god when it comes to top-breaks. Thanks !!

Bob (WB)

SingleShot1891,
The lime color or olive mustard??? boxes seem to .32 Safety Hammerless 2nd Models.

.32 1st Model... 54,xxx and 65,xxx are in yellow
.32 2nd Model... 106,xxx and 110,xxx in olive mustard
.32 3rd Model... 213,xxx in brown

.38 4th Model Safety Hammerless... 171,xxx in red
.38 5th Model... 240,xxx in red
.38 5th Model... 261,xxx in burgandy hinged

I don't have the year handy of boxation, (like that word), but those are the colors I know.

Terry

Yep that box in the bottom picture is the one. When I look at that picture it looks a little green to me too. The 2 maroon boxes on the left in the top picture are the patent or display boxes that S&W used on all of their revolvers from the mid 20s to the early 1930s. The two on the right are both the mustard yellow/green boxes we have been talking about also. The one 2nd from the right has gotton wet and taken on a mottled almost fuzzy surface texture. I have had several like that. I have a 38 New Departure box where the surface looks more like mottled velvet than cloth. It doesn't show obvious signs of being wet other than that so I think it may have suffered long term surface dampness rather than being soaked.
Mike is being modest in his post above. He has shared box information with me freely.
It is thought that S&W didn't start putting the grip warning message in the bottom of the boxes until the early 1900s. They didn't make the pearl and ivory medallion grips until the mid to late 1890s so it would have been pointless until then.
I don't know why I have been so fixated on the boxes. But, if only 5 to 10 percent of the old guns made of hard steel have survived, what percent of the boxes have?
Mark

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Mark Connot

Cflier,
The box that is second from the right is, or was, a yellow 1st model .32 and the last on the right is like the bottom center and more olive drab 2nd model .32 Safety Hammerless.
I find it surprising a box can look so damaged, like that yellow 1st model, but the gun look so new. It must have been stored in another location when the box was soiled/wet??
It does make you wonder how many remain after all these years.

Thanks to ya Mark, for all your research info listed above... I hope you don't mind that I copied it.

Terry

I don't mind that you copy it Terry. I took the measurements from an artical I wrote a few years ago for the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association Journal. Just be aware that some of the info I took from old S & W C A Journals and News Letters from 20 or 30 years ago. And some I got from knowledgable collectors like Mike and Ed above who have been at it a lot longer than I have. We all build on each others knowledge. I suspect someone will ask for the full artical to be listed in this thread as I have been asked to publish the artical here on the web sight before. I have decided not to do that because in some respects it belongs to the collectors association now. I urge each of you who are interested in collecting the old Smiths to join the S&W Collectors Association because there is a wealth of information and commraderie available that can be found no where else.
Mark

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Mark Connot

I don't pretend to be an expert on boxes, but here is one I picked up for my 1921-vintage .32 lemon squeezer. It's brown, and I was advised that it was correct for what I had.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

The green/mustard box was used from the beginning (1st Model) into the early 1910s. If your directions are like the one I am showing, it would be a 1st Model 32 Safety box. Pay close attention to how the revolver opens, that will tell you what model the box was made for. The font on the end label also changed over time. My guess is that the boxes shown above are post-1902. My box came with a 1899 32 Safety.

What seems to have been lost to time is the actual meanings of the box color and why they chose a particular color of the end label? Thoughts are that the colors of boxes were to differentiate models, but never confirmed with documentation. It would be great to have the key to box colors and end label colors.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary, green end labels were for blue guns, whereas orange end labels were for nickel guns. I am not sure if there were other colors for special order finishes such as gold or silver...

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

Thanks Jim. That helps, but I have cream, yellow, blue, and off-white labels on some of my boxes as well?? Some of the colors change over the years, so fading, etc. can certainly change the original color. Here are a few box end labels that are not green or orange??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This is a fantastic thread and I hope that the information is recorded somewhere for future use.

My only concern is that when dealing with 100 year old guns and their boxes that unless the gun owner purchased the package originally from the company can they be certain that the package didn't come together over time.

No offense meant to the poster, and I only use this to illustrate my point, but it is situations like this that could be misinterpreted by future collectors when attempting to establish exact dates or serial numbers regarding specific situations in S&W history.

As caretakers of this history we must be very careful that we gather the correct data so as not to confuse these issues for future collectors.

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James Redfield
LM #497

PALADIN85020 has a box that does fit the 1921 era 32 Safety. The box was what some collectors call the patent box and most sizes had a 1920 patent printed under the instructions. It was also when Spanish instructions were added to the label. I believe that almost all boxes had serial numbers written on the bottom of the box making them relatively easy to date. I, however, have some where the number has either worn off, were erased, or never had the number placed on the box.

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Gary
SWCA 2515