The S&W 1891 Third Model Single Shot was available with the "Olympic Barrel" as a special order. My understanding is this barrel was designed for the 1908 Olympic Pistol Team and during loading the bullet was force fit into the rifling.

SW_3rd M SS-Oly Engagement.jpg

How much more inherent accuracy did this design actually provide, beyond the standard barrel design? I'm hoping HM Pope or someone with some experience with an Olympic barrel can chime in here.

The 1908 US Team must have had something going for them. They won a Gold Medal for Team Pistol and a Bronze in Individual Pistol. In fact four Americans placed in the top 10 Individual Pistol shooters. In addition to the equipment, I'm sure there was true talent and a lot of practice.

Shooting at the 1908 Summer Olympics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Any information you can provide here would be appreciated.

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Mitch
SWCA 2438

I wrote an article for the SWCA Journal (Summer 2006) entitled "Conventional Wisdom--the long and short of it". If you can come up with a copy, you'll have the long version. Here's the (severely) condensed version.

First, there are two different "Olympic Chambers" to be found within the Third Model Single Shot Pistol series--a short one and a really short one. The really short one came first. S&W bowed to the wishes of the "wusses" who said it was too hard to load-----hurt their little pinkies, I guess; and made the chamber a little longer. The fussing continued, so the "Olympic Chamber" which carried over to the Straightline was longer yet. The fussing continued, so the later Straightlines had a standard chamber. So much for your history lesson.

How do they shoot? In a word, FANTASTIC!!! I tested three Third Model Single shots---one with the early, really short chamber, one with the later, longer chamber; and one with a standard chamber. All three pistols carried the standard 10" barrels. Range--25 yards. Ammo--Aguila Super SE Extra. Results: Both Olympic Chamber pistols performed indentically----all 'X' ring. The standard chamber gun scored all 10's, with a group the width of the 'X' ring, but strung from the top to the bottom of the 10 ring. And the standard chamber gun got a break---------I shot it first!

In other words, the folks who fussed about the loading effort didn't know when they were well off!

And by the by, Jinks' "History of S&W" has the special production run of Oympic Chamber guns for the 1910 Olympic Team. If the Olympics were four years apart then, as they are now (Right?), then the date shouldn't be too hard to verify----one way or the other.

AND-----"Neal & Jinks" puts the introduction of the Third Model Single Shot at 1909 (!!!)------so much for 1908.

What's next?!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph:
Thanks for the informative reply. I'll have to find a copy of the 2006 summer SWCA Journal for more details.

I'm beginning to think the "original" Olympic Barrels must have been made for Second Model Single Shots, if the 1908 Olympic Pistol Team used them. Either that, or the Team received Third Model prototypes, as 1909 seems to be the most often cited release date for the Third Model.

I'd love to find an Olympic Barrel for my Third Model, just to see what it, and I, might do. And, I wonder where those actual medal winning match pistols have gone? Prized pieces of history, no doubt.


Thanks again.

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Mitch
SWCA 2438

After I got through running my mouth about what happened when, I too began to think the "original" Olympic barrel (one-off or not) was fitted to a 2nd Model------or several 2nd Models. If nothing else, it makes sense!

I've been looking for Olympic barreled guns off and on for over fifty years! I acquired my first one in the late 50's or very early 60's-------and didn't know what I had for more than ten years after that. When I finally decided to shoot it, I was more than a little puzzled to find a .22 Long Rifle cartridge wouldn't chamber in the gun. I decided the early Long Rifle cartridge must have been different from the current crop. When Jinks' "History of Smith & Wesson" was first published (1977) I got "edumacated". That gun is #11112---shipped 12/04/24-------and has the longer of the two chambers. Then the hunt was on!

The next one I found popped up probably fifteen years later, but there was something seriously wrong with it. Not only would a Long Rifle cartridge not chamber in it, it didn't even come close to fitting like it did in #11112. I finally decided the gun must have been sleeved and chambered for .22 Short-------------and didn't buy it.

Now when I say it didn't even come close, we're talking about a difference of .030" (+/-), but that's a lot when you have "micrometer eyes". Time passed. Up pops another one. They say it's nice. They say it has the Olympic Chamber. I buy it sight unseen. It's nice. It has an Olympic Chamber, but again; the cartridge doesn't even come close to fitting like it does in #11112. It's time for more "edumacation"!

So I got "edumcated". The "new" gun is #10617---shipped 05/17/23, so the chamber change happened somewhere between those two numbers---or those two dates-----or not!! S&W has no record of when the change was made-----or ordered----or thought about----but they know it happened.

The guns are out there, but they're few and far between-----at least where I've been looking!

Ralph Tremaine

Hi Mitch D,
Short chambering a 22 RF or chambering a barrel with 0 free bore will improve the accuracy of a good barrel. It's like "Breech Seating" a center fire rifle bullet and is still done today by a lot of the top Schuetzen Shooters. In most guns it will give about a 30 % increase in accuracy over standard fixed ammo with lead bullets. This cant be done with jacketed bullets, only lead. One of the small problems that was encountered in the early 1900's was that most target 22 RF ammo did not have a crimped in the case bullet, a lot of times if you did not want to shoot the shot and had to un-load the gun the bullet would get stuck in the rifling, and if you were not careful you would end up with a lot of powder in the action of the gun when the case got extracted. I don't like to think I'm a "wuss" but I shoot a 0 free bore 22 RF and in a 60 shot match it does do a job on your thumb when trying to seat the shell flush with the back of the chamber so I use a "wusse" shell pusher.

When breech seating a lead bullet in a rifle the full length of the bullet is seated into the rifling to within a 1/16 of an inch or less just in front of the chamber, usually with a mechanical breech seating tool, then a primed case of the right powder with a wad in the mouth of the case so the powder does not spill out is inserted into the chamber and your ready to shoot.

This may sound like a long procedure but it can be done a lot faster than I can type it. Some of the Schuetzen Shooters use only one case and load it over and over again right at the range, it does take longer if done that way, but a lot pre charge there cases at home like any other re-loader would do, when there ready to shoot, they breech seat the bullet insert the charged case and shoot. If your at a Schuetzen Shoot to just have a good time, socialize, drink German beer, etc. then shooing fixed ammo will work for you as it will make noise like any other ammo. But if your at the shoot to win, breech seating would be the way to go, unless you already drank to much of that German beer.
Regards
H. M. Pope

#11393 was shipped 10-17-1924 to George Worthington Co., Cleveland OH and is the Olympic chamber.
I will add a picture later when I find where I put that 11393

Terry

HM:
Thanks for that explanation. Very helpful & insightful (especially the German Beer part).

Terry:
Am I reading your S&W Letter right? All single shots after 1922 were shipped with Olympic Barrels? If this is the case, there must be more Olympic barrels out there than I thought. Too bad my Perfected shipped in 1917. My S&W Letter does not contain that second to the last sentence.

I guess I'm itching to try one of those barrels out.

__________________
Mitch
SWCA 2438

#11393 was shipped 10-17-1924 to George Worthington Co., Cleveland OH and is the Olympic chamber.
I will add a picture later when I find where I put that 11393
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry,
I just happen to have # 11377, very close to your # 11393, I've been told that it was shipped 4/1924, and it also has the Olympic Chamber.
Regards
H. M. Pope

For those that never seen the difference between an Olympic Chamber and a Standard Chamber here are pictures of both, the one stickin out is of course the Olympic Chamber, you can see how far it has to be pushed in, try pushin it in flush with the barrel in a 60 shot slow fire match, you will soon be usein a shell pusher.
Regards
H. M. Pope

Attached Images

	S&W 22 S S Third Model Standard Chamber.JPG (20.5 KB, 152 views)
	S&W 22 S S Third Model Olympic Chamber.JPG (20.3 KB, 153 views)

Hello Mitch
As Member rct269 has said there were Two different Olympic chamber depths. Here is the shorter one he spoke of and this was one of his spare barrel's he gave to me to use on my S.S. Pistol that was finished and fitted to my frame by David Chicoine....

Hammerdown:
Thanks for the photo. I'm still curious about the Jinks statement that the Olympic chambering feature "...was incorporated on all single shot pistols beginning in early 1922."

Can I ask what the S/N is on your Olympic barrel ?

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Mitch
SWCA 2438

There is no serial number on the Olympic barrel I gave to Kurt---------it was an "in the white" unstamped barrel (fitted only with the ejector mechanism).

As far as Jinks' statement goes, I have no clue! 1923 was the last year of the 3rd Model---according to N&J. I don't know when in 1923. I also don't know how many were made in 1923. I have two 3rd Models with Olympic chambers-----one with the short chamber, and one with the really short chamber. They are #10617 (really short chamber) shipped 05/17/23 and #11112 (short chamber) shipped 12/04/24. Jinks has told me (going on five/six years ago) they don't know when the change from really short to short was made. It may very well be what he meant to say (now) was all the SS's made with Olympic chambers were made with the short chamber---------------------as opposed to the really short chamber------ beginning in early 1922. That would be new news.

It makes no sense at all to think they made all SS's with Olympic Chambers beginning in early 1922. And that's because, aside from the deadly accuracy they produced, they produced continuing complaints about how hard they were to load right from the get-go----------and folks in the business of making money by making guns (or anything else) don't generally crank out too much merchandise which their customers complain about. Right?! Right!!

Ralph Tremaine

That's good info Ralph. I learn a lot hanging around this place.
I'm still trying to locate a copy of your 2006 S&WCA article.

It sure seems odd that the Olympic barrels didn't have any markings to distinguish them from the non-Olympics.

Thanks for the help.

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Mitch
SWCA 2438

Believe it or not, I just got one. Aside from some scuff marks along the barrel and a wee bit of muzzle wear, it looks quite nice. The serial number is a little interesting... Four identical digits, likely made for the 1912 Olympics. I think I am getting it lettered before I post more info.

It has a custom Heiser leather holster.

If anyone has a firing pin for this, I'd like to buy it... The firing pin is a little dinged up, possibly from dry-firing. It looks like there's just a tiny roll-pin holding it in.

Hello Pokute
This Man will have your parts. he is the best on antique S&W Parts and repairs. I hope this helps...

http://www.oldwestgunsmith.com/gunparts/he.htm

Makes sense to me. However, I have an H&R USRA pistol, and I believe that it has an Olympic chamber, partly because I seem to recall that the previous owner, a very knowledgeable fellow in his time, said that it did, partly because it has a high serial number (2900's), and partly because the cartridge doesn't go all the way in when I insert it. [Duh! I guess it wouldn't - the ejector is in the way. This is why I'm not really sure.] Seating is completed when the pistol is closed. However, there is no difficulty in closing the pistol. Unfortunately, I cannot confirm seating pressure from my experience, because any of that is apparently masked by what it takes to compress the spring of the very strong ejector.

That's what I know, which isn't much. Comments are invited.

Being that you "quoted" my post I guess your directing your "Comments are invited" to me so I'll try an help.

I have a few USRA SS pistols, and yes they do have an Olympic chamber, and if yours is in the 2900 range it's close to the end of production. The chamber is designed somewhat different than the S&W Olympic chamber. As you know the USRA pistol has a very strong ejector, not an extractor, the S&W is more of a extractor, I've seen some cases get kicked out of the chamber of a USRA pistol at least 10 feet, an S&W wont do that.

If you want the utmost in accuracy in the S&W you should seat the ammo fully into the chamber, that takes a push, if it's not seated fully you may get soft firing pin hits as the firing pin will be trying to seat the shell and that results in poor ignition that can result in poor accuracy.

The USRA pistol chamber is designed so that the shell is seated fully when the action is closed, the S&W is not.

However, if your nor sure if your USRA pistol has the Olympic chamber,
( I've found that a lot of these old SS pistol chambers were reamed out for easer loading ) there is an easy way to check, take a round that has a long bearing surface on the bullet such as a CCI Standard Velocity round, chamber it, then un-load it, as you know you will have to catch it when it gets kicked out, look closely at the bullet, if it has a good Olympic chamber you will see rifling marks around the bullet.
That's the easiest way I know of to check for a Olympic chamber in any gun, Rifle or Pistol. Maybe some others will have different ways or helpful comments for you.
Regards
H. M. Pope

My 3rd Model with the Oly chamber was shipped Jun 1924 with serial number 10633 which is almost a year later than Mr Pope's ( new gun ). This gun also has a 8" barrel serial number 23824 which was added later and was shipped in 1908.

I'm a little baffled by the descriptions of pushing in the round, which from the sound of things requires you to use your fingers to do it on YOUR guns... Mine get seated very neatly by closing the action. I assumed this was by design.

I owned the same gun before. 18 years ago, I put 600 rounds through it every week for 3 months - I injured my eyes and gave the gun to a friend. He doesn't shoot it anymore, and since I started shooting again, he gave it back. Just ordered the Jinks letter. Tried to take some pictures and they came out too dark. Next weekend.

Also, I see SS's on sale all over the net, but the descriptions on them are all messed up... Wrong model #'s, everybody claims Olympic barrels, etc.

Are you sure your gun had the Olympic chamber ?.
If it doesn't you wont have a problem, even if it does you wont have a problem closing the action on a round, but if you are looking for the best accurcy the ammo has to be seated fully and the best way to be sure you should be pushing it in by hand. Of course if your just plinkin it wont make any difference.
Regards
H. M. Pope

The rounds stop every time about 1/8 inch before seating, and takes a serious push to get it to go any further. I did your test and looked at the bullet after seating and extraction, and the shoulder of the bullet had what looked like groove marks.

Like I said, I assumed the gun was made to work the way I was using it. If you say I should be pushing them in by hand, that's what I'll do.

The gun makes a very fine plinker. Better than having it sit in a safe, don't you think?

pokute,
Yes if the round stops about 1/8 inch before seating you do have an Olympic chamber. If you just put a round of ammo in the chamber and then close the action the gun most likely fire, but at the time these guns were used the course of fire was 50 to 60 rounds shot at 50 yds., in fact it's still the same course of fire today, if shooting the USRA matches it's 50 rounds, if shooting the International matches it's 60 rounds, the X ring is only about 1 3/4 inch, the guns are capable of putting 10 rounds in the X ring but only with good ammo and if loaded and seated properly.

If not loaded properly you may still shoot 10's as the 10 ring is about 3 1/2 inches, but just shooting 10's will not win matches, 10's and X's win matches.

I agree, no matter how you use or shoot it unless you have a need for high end accuracy such as shooting in an event you don't need Match grade ammo or need to be seating the ammo properly, just shoot it and have fun with it.

In fact most shooters will not notice the difference in accuracy unless they are very, very, good shots, one way for anyone to see the difference is to put your gun in a Ransom Rest if possible, get some good Match ammo, shoot 10 rounds by seating the ammo in the chamber by hand, shoot another 10 rounds just by loading a round in the chamber and closing the action, that way you can prove to yourself just how much more accuracy you will gain.
Regards
H. M. Pope

Hi Harry,

I never competed, but a long time ago my hands didn't shake, and I had 20/10 vision without glasses, and I could put a lot of rounds into 1-1/2 inches at 25 yards, which was the length of the range. These days I can get some 3 inch groups of 10 at 25 yards, but mostly a lot worse. The shaky hands and thick glasses are not going to let me do any better. Maybe my daughter, who is just getting into shooting, will get interested enough to give the SS a try, but she really likes to hear the 38 rounds hit the steel!!

Mitch,
One of the pistols I had at Orlando had the Olympic chamber. I did trade it to a guy later for another Club Gun. Sorry.

__________________
Don Mundell

Don:
Wow. It is like deja vu all over again. I started this thread a year ago. Man, how I wanted an Olympic chambered single shot. It was a suprise to see the thread resurrect itself again last week.

You are correct. You had an Olympic chambered 3rd model on your table at Orlando last June. I was the guy you traded it to for a lettered 3rd Model of 1891 with a wierd s/n and factory smooth target stocks. Maybe we both thought it was one of our best trade deals, ever ? (I didn't want you to think I'd forgotten.) ((Don't you have a birthday coming up next month ?))

So, I'm happy to report that I now have an Olympic chambered S&W single shot. The accuracy is excellent. It currently resides in a special presentation case together with a standard barreled 1891 3rd Model which shipped to Browning Brothers in 1917. The two guns are near identical, except one is Oly chambered, the other not. The Browning gun is about 1400 units and 4 years earlier. They make a great pair, a joy to shoot. I most recently shot them with my 80 year old father in some friendly target competition off the back porch. Incidently, they now both sport Roper I frame target stocks, courtesy of Lee Jarrett.

This was one of my quests which had a most happy ending. I found my gun, made a great trade, and found / made some new friends. It don't get much better than that.

Ain't this place great ?

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Mitch
SWCA 2438

I shot mine yesterday. You would need the thumbs of Hercules to seat the rounds. I could not seat even one using just my thumb. I was shooting Wolf Match Extra ammo.

Not many shooters could finish a 50 shot course of fire just using there thumb to seat a shell in the chamber of an S&W Olympic chamber, I know I couldn't do much more that 10 rds by thumb, that's why most used shell pushers to seat the ammo. A lot did not think it was worth the effort to seat there ammo that way so had there chambers open up to standard dimensions.
Regards
H. M. Pope

Just ordered a third mod off Gun Broker cannot wait to take it to the range.