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Old 06-07-2011, 06:50 AM
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dan_S&W dan_S&W is offline
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Default New (Brit) collector - DA S&W 44 pricing (+ pics of your guns?)

First post, and been a member since 2009! Since then I have searched around the UK for a nice 44 Russian cal S&W and found that..
old/new mod 3s are out of my price range
44 Double actions are in bad shape and invariably overpriced

So, I am in need of an up to date pricing for these revolvers in at least 'shootable' condition - maybe a pic of one of your revolvers and an estimate? I really need this as classified ads on these guns are not often posted - there is one (blue, very good condition) that sold for $850 in the selling section, but I don't know if this can be generalised.

Hopefully you will see a WTB ad from me soon.

WANTED AD POSTED IN WANTED SECTION

Thanks for your help, Dan.

Last edited by dan_S&W; 06-08-2011 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:55 AM
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I wasn't very clear - I'm looking for information on any .44 Russian (not 44WCF) Double Actions (blue or nickel finish)
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Old 06-07-2011, 10:03 AM
rhmc24 rhmc24 is offline
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Here are two. I paid $800 couple years ago for the blue one, cheap because it had broken grips at the time. The nickel one, $900, had its original hard rubber grips. Blue DAs are scarce and command more price than nickel ones in same % condition. I have others but these are the only pix I had in photobucket.

I hope this is helpful. Keep checking gunbroker.com auctions. They usually have big S&W DAs listed. There is no difference in prices for .44 Russian or .44-40 in my experience.

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Old 06-07-2011, 01:34 PM
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Thanks for the pics! These are two beautiful guns, sounds like you got a good price too, very useful thanks. I've been browsing gunbroker for a few months with no luck, I would also prefer to buy it off the S&W forum guys in terms of trust and communication.

44-40 in a revolver is not legal for civilians to own here, even with a license, so no good for me other than eye candy

if anyone else wants to show us S&Ws in 44 Russian please do
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Old 06-07-2011, 02:15 PM
Dosgatos Dosgatos is offline
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I paid $1,000 for this one two years ago. All the parts match and the walnut grips number to the gun. The original blue is about 90%. the gun shipped to a New York distributor in 1884 and ended up here in Oregon.


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Old 06-08-2011, 11:50 AM
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Thanks for that, I'll be putting an ad up in the 'wanted' section soon.
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:04 AM
Ballarat Ballarat is offline
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dan, I was under the impression all handguns were banned in the UK these days for the civilian population unless they were totally deactivated. Have things started to improve, be very surprised if the politicians have acknowledged the error of their ways. Interesting. Should you obtain what you are looking for will it have to be deactivated?

Our laws are tough enough, but at least we can still own and shoot handguns with only moderate political interference. Queensland is one of the better states in which to own handguns.
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Old 06-09-2011, 06:01 AM
rhmc24 rhmc24 is offline
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Minor correction - re my blue with pearls above, original price I paid was $660. It looked very good but with badly broken original grips so I bid 800. The other bidder/s let me have it for 660.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:35 AM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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Howdy

I paid $800 for this one a few months ago. It has been reblued. A reasonable job of rebluing except the side plate was rounded over a bit. Hammer and trigger were blued too. Lock up at the latch was a little bit loose, but that has been taken care of. Front sight was not original, but that has been taken care of too. Barrel/cylinder gap is a little bit large, and the bore and chambers are pitted, but the rifling is still strong.

Yes, this one is chambered for 44 Russian and I do shoot it. Still very accurate. But I only shoot it with Black Powder so as not to overstress anything.
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-44da01-jpg   -44da02-jpg   -cylinderdetail44da-jpg   -44dabushing02-jpg  
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Old 06-09-2011, 09:56 AM
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Wouldn't you have a very difficult time "importing" a handgun to the UK? I recall when I was stationed at RAF Sculthorpe in Norfolk County that the paperwork to purchase a firearm, back in the early 60's, was daunting. I understand it is worse now. Because I lived on base, any firearm acquired would have to be kept under lock in the base gun club, only to be checked out when used, and the permit would list the amount of ammo I would be able to purchase annually. If you used all the ammo up you were done for the year.
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Old 06-09-2011, 10:21 AM
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rhmc24 - $660 seems very reasonable for it - I couldn't tell it was a re-blue from the pic, must be an old one. Are those the original pearls?

driftwood- nice gun, how does it feel to shoot? I will never get the pleasure but it would be interesting to know, thanks for your help.

In answer to ballarat, yes, handguns (in general) are now prohibited to British shooters. I won't bore you with details, but here in the UK the shooting bodies have weak input over public opinion, so after the horrors of dunblane pistols were banned in a popular knee-jerk reaction and it will not go back to how it was. period. Americans have their guns as a right written into their constitution, whereas In the UK it is merely a privilege. Ironically heavily influenced by the English 1689 Bill of Rights no royal interference in the freedom of the people to have arms for their own defence as suitable to their class and as allowed by law...notice the slippery wording! ..class and as suitable by law! Good job that was fixed with a war and the 2nd amendment.

Anyway, in the UK the '44 russian' ctg is listed as 'obsolete' under sect 58(2) of the firearms act which is effectively the same as the US pre-1899 rules except we cant fire them and they must remain as 'curios/ornaments'..never-mind eh
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Old 06-09-2011, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H Richard View Post
Wouldn't you have a very difficult time "importing" a handgun to the UK? I recall when I was stationed at RAF Sculthorpe in Norfolk County that the paperwork to purchase a firearm, back in the early 60's, was daunting. I understand it is worse now. Because I lived on base, any firearm acquired would have to be kept under lock in the base gun club, only to be checked out when used, and the permit would list the amount of ammo I would be able to purchase annually. If you used all the ammo up you were done for the year.
Yes I would, good job under law its not technically a firearm! No import license needed for guns over 100 years old (vague isn't it?) and since this is exempt under both US and UK law it can be shipped normally. It will be impounded for a short while to be checked and then released.

Your experience seems a bit harsh for the 60s, but visitor gun permits have always been like that, even for the military. What you have described however is how firearms must be kept now, with the exception they can be kept at home. No limits on ammo either, as long as you can safely store it.
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Old 06-09-2011, 12:45 PM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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Dan

I load the 44 Russian cartridge a bit lighter than the original. I use a 200 grain bullet, I believe the original used a 246 grain bullet. I can put 1.3CC of FFg under the bullet and get good compression. That works out to about 19.5 grains when using FFg Schuetzen. In the big 44DA that load is a *****cat. Not much more recoil than a 38 Special in a Model 10. I shoot the same load in my New Model Number Three.

Very accurate in both guns.
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:09 PM
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Yeah, light loads in these old guns would seem the best route. That puff of white smoke and the smell of blackpowder is what counts, not power. How does it respond to the fouling after a few rounds?
Dan
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Old 06-09-2011, 05:30 PM
rhmc24 rhmc24 is offline
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My blue above is original blue maybe 70%. It's s/n is 22xx I think ca 1910 and is a .44-40. I scrapped the old hard rubber grips that were broken badly. The pearls started out as K frames that I reworked. K frame grips with chipped corners are cheap on eBay now and then and easily rework to fit these oldies - nicer than plastic repros.

I have a .44 Russ shooter that I reamed the cyl & shoot .44 Special, same ballistics as the .44 Russ.
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Old 06-09-2011, 08:08 PM
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How hard were they to re-work? Seems like a good idea, but judging from your other pieces I would be out of my depth if I attempted it
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:03 PM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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Dan

These guns were designed to shoot Black Powder. They can shoot it all day long, as long as you understand the proper way to make up a Black Powder cartridge.

Take a look at these photos. The first shows the business end of the cylinder. Notice the nice prominent gas ring on the front of the cylinder. It stands about .170 above the front face of the cylinder. In the next photo the cylinder is lined up under the arbor it rotates around. Notice the helical grooves cut around the front of the arbor near where it is pressed into the barrel frame. Last, study the relationship of where the barrel cylinder gap is in relation to the front of the gas ring. They are not in the same plane, they are far from being in the same plane. By about .170.

What happens is when the gun fires, Black Powder fouling gets blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap. But since the gap and the front of the gas ring are not in the same plane, the gas ring deflects the fouling away from the arbor. Very little fouling gets past the gas ring. Those helical grooves on the arbor are the second line of defense. They are clearance cuts. Any fouling that manages to get past the gas ring winds up in the clearance grooves. Fouling in the clearance grooves will not cause the cylinder to bind. But the gas ring does its job so well that very little fouling gets past it anyway.

The other thing most shooters do not understand today is that special bullet lube is needed for Black Powder. Modern hard lubes do not work well with Black Powder. They combine with the fouling to form a hard crust that quickly fills the rifling, ruining accuracy. This crust also causes binding when it gets down inside the cylinder. I cast my own soft lead bullets for Black Powder. They are lubed with special Black Powder compatible bullet lube. It does not turn hard and crusty, it stays soft and gooey. My bullets have one huge lube groove that carries much more lube than conventional bullets. Any fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap and deposited on the cylinder will stay soft and moist because some bullet lube will be mixed in. It will help keep the cylinder rolling.

I can shoot this 44DA and my New Model #3 all afternoon with Black Powder loads and they keep right on ticking.

Unfortunately, when Uberti designed their modern replicas of the Schofield and the Russian, they altered the design of the gas ring. So did S&W when they reissued the Schofield in 2000. Those guns are not designed to shoot Black Powder, and they perform very badly with it, because the gas rings on them are too short. They usually bind up after just a couple of cylinders full of Black Powder rounds.

Regarding reaming a 44 Russian cylinder to 44 Special, although I have never done it myself, it should be a fairly simple job. The 44 Russian cartridge is the direct ancestor of the 44 Special. They are identical in all dimensions except the Special case is roughly 1/8" longer than the Russian case. Using the correct reamer, one would just lengthen the chamber the needed amount. 44 Russian cases were not available for a long time, but they are now, so I am perfectly content to load them up with Black Powder and shoot these guns in their original calibers.
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Old 06-10-2011, 05:11 AM
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Driftwood - thanks for that very informative explanation, I didn't realize how structurally extensive the methods for this would be. I am sure others will find this useful too (i had to print it off!) Dan.
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Old 06-10-2011, 06:59 AM
rhmc24 rhmc24 is offline
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Mother of pearl works well with metal working tools. A file, emery cloth, wet or dry paper, bench grinder, drill, etc. It works about as fast as aluminum but is brittle, frangible and can raise fine dust. For fitting K grips to the DA frame, the locating pin hole has to be moved. I do that first and then work the excess down to fit the grip frame. The top of the grip fits well with little work.

To locate the hole, I first punch out the pin from the frame and use the hole in the frame to start drilling the new MOP hole. If you mislocate the hole a little, just enlarge it enuf to get external fit and fill the enlarged part of the hole with epoxy glue. Wax the frame & pin, put the grip in place till the glue sets.

For reaming the cylinder to take .44 Special, I carefully turned a piece of drill rod to a close slip fit into the cyl bore, with a shoulder on it to control depth. I filed random spaced teeth around the end and hardened it. I turned it by hand to cut the new depth. I was pleased that it takes a very close inspection to see evidence of it. Without knowing, it wouldn't be seen.
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cartridge, fouling, lock, military, model 10, russian, s&w, schofield, uberti, walnut

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