I finally got back up to my grandfather's place. As promised here are some pics of the gun I was describing. Serial number 8326 matches cylinder and butt of grip. As a refresh, I was looking to confirm the model and hoping to make my grandfather an offer to purchase the gun. What is best approach to get a reasonable estimate of value so as not to rip-off my grandpa, but also to avoid over-inflated guesses by local gun shops? How do I find an appriaser locally? Any advice appreciated.

That's a beautiful old .44 Double Action. It looks to be very well preserved, but I can't tell from some of the photos if the blue is still in good shape over the entire revolver. The back of the cylinder appears to have some oxidation, or maybe that's just a trick of the light.

The Standard Catalog of S&W values these guns at $1700 in excellent condition (which is my impressionistic guess at its classification based only on these photos) and $4000 in Excellent+. Those prices are now about five years old, so adjust accordingly. I think many collectors would be willing to buy a gun like this one for $2000, and possibly more.

I'm not sure what's going on with the stocks. Somebody who follows these large top-breaks more closely than I do will have to express an opinion about them.

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David Wilson

Thanks David, So it is a DA, that is good to know. Yes I think it is in pretty good condition but I'm not a collector and do not know what to look for. Where can I get a collector book that you reference for values? Do those books describe the attributes of the different conditions? If so I could sit down with my grandpa with the book and we culd agree on a price. But from what you've mentioned it seems the gun might be more valuable than I can afford.

The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 3rd edition, is the basic reference for S&W enthusiasts. It has many valuable short introductory sections, including one that deals with grading. The authors also provide values for most models, ranging from poor condition to NIB (new in box). If your hands happen to fall on a Blue Book of Gun Values (reissued with revisions every year), be extremely skeptical. Their reported values on some older models can vary widely from market reality, and not in a way that favors the buyer.

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David Wilson

Thanks again David, found it on Amazon. Maybe even I can find it at a local book store. - Nate

Very nice!

Your grandfather has great taste in firearms.
Thats a very nice condition 44.

Thanks Moose! My grandpa bought it so long ago he doesn't remember where he got it from. He is not a collector, this is just a gun he happens to own. He has an interesting "accidental" collection that include a Harrington 1925 semi-auto .22 pistol and a Browning A5 12ga (that he still hunted deer with until a few years ago). He's had others that I hear in stories, but not sure how many he still owns, they're all scattered around the house.

The only thing I know about this gun is that the firing pin broke off the hammer years ago (possilbly 1960's or earlier?) and he had it repaired. He hasn't fired it since due to fear it might break again. Not sure how he would replace the pin without replacing the hammer, does that look like the original hammer?

You guys are making this gun sound so nice that I'm almost motivated to exceed my reasonable budget to buy it while my grandpa is still around.

Can't tell from the pix; is it .44 Russian or .44-40?

Larry

My grandpa says it is a .44 Russian. He couldn't remember originally but years ago when he first showed me this gun, he said it was a "wierd" 44 caliber. I did some research for him and asked if it was possibly .44 Russian. He said "Yeah! That is it!"

How would I know for sure?

With the serial number you gave, measure the length of the cylinder. If it's 1-7/16ths, it a .44 Russian. If it's 1-9/16ths, it's a .44/40

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Big6ft6, I'm almost 100% certain your grandfather's gun is .44-40, not .44 Russian. That's the good news, since it's easier to get modern empty cases and the round had more power, etc. But I don't imagine you or your grandfather plan to shoot it.

His gun has replacement (homemade?) wooden grips, as the originals were either red or black molded hard rubber, which I have on mine.

My personal opinion is that if these guns are sound, in-time, and not all worn out, they are safe to shoot with low powered loads made just for them. But there is little reason to do so, considering the way their value has been increasing.

I have the identical gun, but in .44 Russian. I just got it out to compare with your picture. Your flutes and cylinder OAL are noticeably longer, by around 1/10". If you look inside the chambers, you will also see that they have a slight necked forward end, as .44 WCF, aka .44-40, has a slight shoulder.

I love this model. I shoot mine now and then with a mild smokeless load (Yes, I know, I know.) which gives less pressure and slightly less recoil than the correct black powder load, which I have also tested in it. This 130 year old gun delivers roughly the same power as a .45 ACP 1911 Colt pistol. I load a bullet cast from an original mold for the specified .44 Russian cartridge. Diameter for this one is .429", just like .44 magnum. I believe I'm loading the same diameter for .44 WCF, like your grandfather's gun.

If you are somehow able to obtain the gun, I think you will find it to be a real treasure, strong, very well designed, and a true classic S&W. You might be able to obtain original grips for it, but that would be a long and expensive road. And there was minor hand fitting of the grips at the factory.

Oh yes, I bought mine from an elderly farmer with a table at a small gun show in Annapolis, MD, about 30 years ago...for $165. Couldn't get the price lowered, so I bit the bullet and paid the asking price. He was happy. I'm more happy, with each passing year. I hope you and your grandfather can work something out because that gun, even without original grips, is a real keeper and, in this case, it has family provenance.

Uh, I hate to be a party pooper, but the hammer/trigger should be case hardened----not blue. Maybe it's just the pictures, but these look blue---------???? That said, the barrel address looks pristine; so-------????

On a perhaps brighter note, is that a blade rear sight I see peeking up back there? If it is (a target model)----and if the gun has not been refinished, then the values noted here need to be increased----SUBSTANTIALLY !!!!

Ralph Tremaine

To update info above -- the longer cylinders can be either .44 Russian or .44-40 or (very rare .38-40). The short cylinders are .44 Russian. I have several of these old S&W DAs with examples of both the .44s. I have them with checkered wood grips, black hard rubber and pearl.

A long cylinder (1-9/16ths) with a serial over 15,340 will be a .44 Russian. Less than 15,341 and it's a .44/40
A 38/40 will have a serial range of 1-276 (and a 1-9/16ths cylinder.)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I don't know what a bladed rear sight is, and I'm not sure I want to know if the value of the gun is "substantially" higher becuase it is already to a point of depleting my family's emergency fund. But since the question has been raised, I would feel guilty offering my grandpa a price without knowing...here is a pic that has the rear sight in it. The sight is a little blurry since I was focusing on the serial number on the cylinder and not on the sight.

Well, what it isn't is a stock standard target sight of the period (adjustable for elevation and windage). What it appears to be is a Type 5 Target Sight (See Neal's article)-------which is about as rare as hens' teeth----and supposedly used only on the #3 Single Action Target in 32-44 caliber-----which I probably don't need to mention was in production at the same time as this gun-------------so---------????????!!!!!!!!!!

I said it wasn't adjustable for elevation----I don't know that without a picture of the underside of the latch. If there's a little screw there, it is. If there's no screw, it isn't.

Is the latch numbered to the gun? If it is, the gun almost certainly came this way from the factory. If it isn't, the gun very well may still have come this way from the factory. (I have three top-breaks with target sights and unnumbered latches----all three show as special order----and all three show as shipped with target sights.)

Back to values-----------a 44 DA 1st shipped with target sights is worth at least 50% more than a standard gun. If this gun was shipped with a Type 5 Target Sight, then it's worth more than that----a lot more-----if it isn't refinished. (????)

What's next? What's next is you are in DESPERATE need of a letter----if it isn't refinished!! You need to send the sight photo----or a better photo with your letter request.

Ralph Tremaine

What's with the blued hammer and trigger?

Kobsw

To those of you who added the info about the long cylinder caliber variations, of which I was unaware, I wonder what the barrel markings would be, to distinguish between .44 Russian, .44-40, and .38-40?

Kobsw, my grandpa told me about a repair, my memory is that the firing pin broke off..but this was years ago and my understanding might have been incorrect, maybe something else broke in the hammer? I don't know. Would they have to replace the hammer and trigger? How does hardened steel appear different than blue? If they repaired it would they have blued the hardened steel parts to protect them?

I'll have to ask my grandpa some more questions. Unfortunatley the gun is more than two hours drive from my house so it isn't easy to get more pics.

Man all this info is driving me crazy...like a mystery. I'm totally hooked and starting to have a hard time concentrating at work.

If you're talking about the rib markings (patent dates, etc.), according to Neal & Jinks, there is no difference. Some of the late model Frontiers had a single line barrel address. I don't know if late Russians followed suit.
As for caliber markings, most, but not all 38/40s were marked. Some late 44/40s were also marked. I don't know that I've ever seen a 44 Russian that was marked as such.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Howdy

Sometimes a few photos can make things easier to understand.

The first photo shows several cartridges. The short cartridge in the center is a 44 Russian. The cartridge to the right of the 44 Russian is a 44-40 (also known as 44 WCF). So right away you can see how different they are in length. If you look at the next photo, you can see I have the calipers set against the rim of the 44 Russian and at the case mouth. The reading is about .900. The same measurement on the 44-40 would be about 1.240. The next photo is looking down into the chambers of my 44 DA. It is chambered for 44 Russian. The ring in each chamber is the location where the chamber narrows down from case diameter to bullet diameter. The ring sits about .930 down in the chamber. You can do the same thing with your cylinder, even if you don't have a caliper. You can use a very thin stick or a piece of wire. If the chamber throat sits about .930 down (just under an inch), your revolver is chambered for 44 Russian. If it is around an inch and a quarter, it is chambered for 44-40.

The last photo shows the typical rear sight on one of these guns. It is just a bit of raised metal, integral with the barrel catch. A groove is cut down the center of the raised bit, forming the groove of the rear sight. Yes, my gun has been refinished, the hammer is blue.

There is something a little bit odd about the front sight on your grandfather's gun. The standard front sight on these was just a simple half round blade. I have included an illustration from a turn of the century catalog to show what the standard front sight looked like. Target guns came with a different front sight, but your grandfather's gun does not have the standard target front sight either. The sights can be removed and replaced by removing the pin that holds them in place. Perhaps somebody replaced yours with a different sight at some time. Or perhaps somebody filed down the original sight.

Attached Images

	44mag44sp44R44403840.jpg (68.3 KB, 71 views)
	44russianandcalipers.jpg (106.3 KB, 66 views)
	44russianchambers.jpg (68.7 KB, 72 views)
	44DArearsight.jpg (94.7 KB, 106 views)
	catalogillustration44doubleaction.jpg (54.5 KB, 89 views)

Big

Seems to me with the non original grips, and not knowing the caliber, and filed down front sight and all, the value on this one keep going down. So keep the faith.

I'm a grandpa too, and from my perspective, a grand son exhibiting this much interest in a gun I bought LONG AGO just might get a BIG fat family discount. Only issues are uncles and cousins and such, so lets just keep this between me and you and Grandpa.


Charlie

Driftwood, thanks for all the great info. This is the most excited I've been about a gun since I got my first .22 when I was 12 years old.

Charlie, thanks for grounding the discussion, and bringing me back to reality. I should just make my grandpa an offer I can afford, it sounds like this gun has some things that are unique, but also some things counting against it. Maybe they cancel eachother out so I won't feel bad making an offer in the excellent condition range for a normal .44 DA.

Big

Case Hardening is an old technique used to harden the outer surface of relatively soft steel. The parts were packed in carbon bearing materials like bone or leather and heated in a furnace. At the right temperature, small amounts of carbon would leach out of the materials and become infused in the surface of the steel. The result was the main body of the steel would remain relatively soft and ductile, but the surface would be much harder. This meant that the parts would remain strong because they had not been hardened all the way through, hardening can make parts brittle. But the outer surface would be very hard and wear resistant. This hard surface only extended a few thousandths of an inch into the steel, so it was often referred to as Case Hardening, because only the outer 'case' of the metal was hardened.

Smith & Wesson always Case Hardened their hammers and triggers. When new the parts will exhibit colors ranging from yellow to blue. The actual colors have no effect on the hardness of the parts, they are just a byproduct of the process. But with care the colors could be very striking and beautiful. The gun buying public came to appreciate the beauty of the colors, so most of the old time firearms manufacturers used techniques in their Case Hardening process to bring out the colors as vividly as possible. Smith and Wesson was no different. I have attached a photo of an old Military and Police revolver to show you what a Case Hardened hammer and trigger look like. The colors themselves will fade with time, and can even fade when subjected to harsh chemicals, or even sunlight can fade the colors. The surface of the parts will still be hard, but the colors will have faded. Eventually, if the colors fade enough the parts will just look like raw steel, without any finish on them. Even though the blue is worn and faded in spots on this old M&P, the colors on the hammer and trigger are still very good.

One of the dead giveaways that a S&W has been refinished is if the hammer and trigger have been blued. Many people who refinish guns do not have the facilities to bring out the colors again in a case hardened part, so they just polish off the colors and blue the parts.

Another dead giveaway that a S&W has been refinished is if the joint around the side plate is highly visible. The joint on the side plate of my 44 DA is an example of that, as well as the blued hammer and trigger. What happens is when the refinisher polishes the gun prior to blueing, he removes the plate and polishes it separately, rounding over the edges. When reassembled, the rounded over edges shout out that the gun has been refinished.

While your Grandpa's gun shows the hammer and trigger have been reblued, the refinisher did an excellent job everywhere else. I see no evidence of dishing around the screw holes, over polishing the markings, and the side plate joint is still almost invisible, as it was when it left the factory.

Attached Images

	casehardenedhammerMP.jpg (96.7 KB, 95 views)
	NewFrontSight.jpg (79.8 KB, 91 views)

You need to resolve the issue of finish----original or refinished. IF the gun has been refinished, it will NEVER be in the excellent condition range for a normal 44 DA----never mind target sights or anything else! If you want a normal 44 DA in the excellent condition range, go find one. Your money will be well spent----not thrown away.

Ralph Tremaine

Well, with all due respect, I think he should make his Grandpa a nice offer for the gun and take it just as it is.

The value of owning a family heirloom easily outweighs the monetary value of a pristine collectible in my book.

For what it's worth, I think the hammer and trigger show that the gun has been refinished, but it was a good job without over polishing.

Big - for $50 you can get a factory letter on the gun from Roy Jinks, the official S&W factory historian. He will research the gun and tell you when it left the factory, and what the configuration was when it left the factory; things like barrel length, blued or nickel plated, and caliber. He will also probably be able to tell you where the gun was shipped. There is a section of this forum where you can find the specifics about getting a factory letter. You should take some good photos of the gun, particularly pointing out some of the questions such as the sights, and the grips, and send them with the form.

In the meantime, you should examine the gun and see that all the serial numbers match. The serial number on these guns shows up in four places. The bottom of the butt is the most important because it serializes the frame. The SN will also be on the rear face of the cylinder, the underside of the barrel latch, and there is one more hidden on the barrel right next to the latch. All four numbers should match, indicating that neither the barrel, cylinder, nor the latch have been changed in the intervening years.

Driftwood (and others), wow thanks for taking the time to post all of this great information. I know that it can be draining on those of you who have knowledge to constantly have to repeat yourselves to all of us newbies out here who show up on forums and ask the same questions over and over. Being a newbie I don't have much knowledge to share in return, but I very much appreaciate your gift of knowledge. I feel smarter today now that I know about case hardening!

I'm eager to talk with grandpa now that my head is full of all these new questions. And I think for sure I will send away for the letter, that would be exciting. But it sounds like I should wait until I get some better pics of the areas in question.

I need advice regarding the factory letter.

I sent my factory letter request April 16th. How long should I wait before being worried that it was lost?

I called customer service and was (in a rather cold manner I might add) told I need to call Mr. Jinks himself to ask about factory letter issues. However if I were Mr. Jinks and working on a long back-log of letters the last thing I would appreciate would be over-eager customers calling asking about letter status.

The customer service rep gave me Roy's direct line buy I'm nervous to bother him. Has anyone every called him? Any advice? Should I wait a little longer?

Many have called him BUT he is known to be 3 to 4 mos back logged at this time. Good luck with your letter. I awaiting several letters myself.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

I'm wondering the same thing. I sent in my request on three different revolvers. I know they take longer these days but I'd really just like to know that he received the request(s). I am anxious to receive the information, but I will be patient......

That's a good looking heirloom your grandpappy's got there. If it was me I'd make sure you were listed in my will as the lawful heir to this piece then just give it to you now and so note it in my will.

I actually had a good friend many years ago that did that with me. He had a really nice Type 14 Japanese Nambu pistol with holster rig that I always admired. He said to me one day, "I'm going to leave this to you in my will!" I actually thought he was joking and told him that would be great. About a month later I was at his house and he handed me a piece of paper and said, "here, sign this." It was an addendum to his will showing that he gave me the gun before he died. I couldn't believe it! I told him he really didn't have to do this but he insisted and said he really wanted me to have the gun now. I think he just wanted to see the reaction on my face when he did this. I agreed reluctantly but told him that if he ever wanted it back, ever, just say the word. 20 years later and I still have the Nambu and Gino!

We live far apart now, but he's still with us!

Thanks Ken and Goring. I'll continue waiting patiently, knowing others are experiencing a longer wait gives me hope my letter is still in the works! I feel like the boy in the movie Chirstmas story waiting for his secret decoder ring to come in the mail!! I have a little flicker hope every day when I check the mail...it is kind of fun!

Thanks for the kind words, thoughts and story Ken. I did end up aquiring this pistol from my grandfather. After many years of gentle reminders that I would buy this from him, my grandfather called earlier this spring and said he would sell it to me. I too think he wanted to see the smile on my face (which was huge). This is kind of a secret between he and I becuase none of the other relatives know of the guns existance, and few would care unless they found out it might be worth something. This is a great sense of pride for me, and fuels many day dreams about where this gun may have been. I was wrong when I said my grandfather bought this gun, he says this was among his father's guns that he inherited which makes it that much more special to me and makes me that much more eager to get my letter...what if this was sold to my great-great grandfather?

Luckily my grandfather is still here too, I'm going to see him tomorrow while he is in between chemo treatments.

Whatever you do, NEVER never never sell that gun. It is a family heirloom, write down all the details you can on the history of the gun, interview your grandfather. And get the letter on the gun, it will be an interesting addition to the history.

Sure, some of your other relatives will want their "share", but the less they know the better. I know.

On a side note, the VP at my day job had three firearms that were his fathers. Only one was any good, an original .38 revolver from way back, along with a single box of ammo - missing two rounds. Nice collector piece and he didn't want it, probalby afraid of guns. I've got a few family keepsake guns, none are very nice, but each has a history behind it.... like my Grandfather, he was a poor dirt farmer, and I have his worn out .22 for squirrels and a two-blade pocket knife... no telling how many squirrels he shot and cleaned with those tools. I wish I had the chance to have known him better.

Here are a few new pics of my old DA .44 Russian. Mine is standard, as shipped...except for the rust and wear, this is an example of the sights and grips...



Standard sights...



Longer cylinder in my later gun-SN 38846-but still .44 Russian...



These pics may be of some help...

mark

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Liberals made the USA