I am new to the S-W forum due to my purchase today of....well I am not quite sure! I purchased a lot of 5 guns today sight unseen for $500. The description was 2 SxS 12 gauge, 2 early 12 gauge semi autos and a worthless old revolver. Well the 2 SxS's were $200 guns and the 2 semi's were a JC Higgins Model 66 and Stevens 311 so all was OK and then he handed me the S-W in a plastic bag and said you can have this revolver too. After searching this forum I am sure someone can help identify this revolver. Serial number is 2991 and it seems to match, caliber is not stamped anywhere but a 44 cal seems to fit. It is not in very good shape but I am of the opinion that they are all salvageable and worth saving! Personally I think the revolver is a perfect candidate for a complete re-do by Smith and Wesson along with a letter of certification from Mr Jinks and it would make a great display piece. Have a look at the pics and let me know what you think.
Best,
Marvin

[/IMG]

AKA: "New Model Navy No. 3".

Most likely, the chambering is .44 Russian. But similar guns were chambered in .44 WCF (.44-40) and were thus referred to as the "Frontier Model".

Top Break guns are not really my thing, but I thought that I'd jump in and show you a couple of snapshots of what they look like when near new...











For whatever reason, these guns don't seem to get the attention and following that their single action Schofield and New Model No.3 cousins do, but they are interesting nonetheless...

Drew

Drew,
Thanks, those are great pictures! Any idea what year my gun was produced based on the serial number?
Thanks,
Marvin

Marvin,

It's early in the production sequence, but as I said, I'm not really a top break guy... looking at my references, primarily the "Standard Catalog of S&W" by Jim Supica & Rick Nahas, I would guess something like 1881 (year of introduction) -82...

Drew

Based on guns near your serial number 1881-82 is a good guess. Problem is those guns were not always shipped as they were manufactured, and did not go out the door in order. A factory letter is your only accurate dating means.

Also, as an FYI, S&W does not refinish antique revolvers anymore, but there master refinishers out there, David Chicoine is one worth checking out. You should be sure your investment will be worth the undertaking as these .44 DAs have not been in strong demand by collectors. Many prefer the single action big bores from S&W, and so they usually command the higher prices.

Another advantage of going to a master gun refinisher is that they will be able to tell you about the mechanical condition, and if the barrel has been shortened, or the condition of the bore, etc. Before you spend your money, try to make sure the gun is in its original as manufactured state without alterations or modifications.

Best of luck,

Gary

Howdy

These guns were usually known simply as the 44 Double Action. They are the only large frame double action Top Break revolvers that S&W made. I can tell you that I own SN 2428 and it was shipped in October of 1881. Yours was probably shipped sometime later, but I cannot tell you exactly when.

When you state that a 44 cal cartridge seems to fit, exactly what cartridge are you referring too? These guns were not chambered for 44 Special, they were chambered for 44 Russian and 44-40. The 44 Russian cartridge has the same dimensions as the 44 Special except it is about 1/10" shorter. 44-40 (also known as 44WCF for 44 Winchester Center Fire) has a very slight bottleneck to it. It is roughly the same length as a 45 Colt. Do not try to fire a 44 Special in a 44-40 chamber. The cartridge may chamber, but the chamber is the wrong dimensions for 44 Special.

Another way to tell the caliber is that with guns in your SN range the cylinders chambered for 44 Russian were 1 7/16" long. The cylinders chambered for the longer 38-40 and 44-40 cartridge were 1 9/16" long.

These are great old revolvers but they are made with 19th Century steel. Firing them with modern Smokeless ammunition is not recommended. They should only be fired with ammunition loaded with Black Powder. A gunsmith familiar with them should go over it before attempting to shoot it.

Unfortunately, S&W no longer works on these old revolvers. One gunsmith who does work on them is Dave Chicoine, the author of several books on old guns. He can be reached here:

oldwestgunsmith.com

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Gary,
Thanks for your advice. It certainly seems like $50 for the letter of authenticity is the way to go at this point, then determine where to go from there. As it stands, I have 0 in the gun and I do not consider it an investment....so any money spent on restoration would be the total investment in the gun. So, to have a restored gun from approx 1881 is very exciting.
Best,
Marvin

Mr. Johnson,
Thanks for your insight, that is a big help and I seem to be making progress. The chamber on my gun is exactly 1 and 10/16.... What would you recommend for valuing the gun as it sits so I can simply establish a base value as I move forward?
Marvin

One quick question....Has your revolver been refinished?
Marvin

Yours was originally nickeled, now in rough shape but doesn't seem to have bad pitting. If function is OK, an hour with Flitz polish could make it worth maybe $750 at auction. If refinished in blue maybe $100 more. A quality refinish can cost $300-500. Here is my 44-40 I refinished from finely pitted, took endless hours.

Thank you, that is very helpful. Today, I sent off for the Jinks letter and also sent photos to David Chicoine asking his advice about refinishing the gun. I will determine the exact caliber tomorrow and then wait patiently for the Jinks letter which hopefully will tell me the gun is 100% original. At which point I will make a determination which direction to go. There is a dizzying amount of possibilities for the 130 year old revolvers and I am very thankful the Jinks letters are available. Does anyone have direct experience with Dave Chicoine? Thanks again,
Marvin

I have dealt with both Dave Sr. and Dave Jr. They do top notch work and are really great guys. I highly recommend them.

Thank you, that seems to be the concensus. What would you guys do if you had this revolver?
Marvin

David mechanically rebuilt my Frontier 44-40 several years ago and it looked to be much worse than your revolver. It came back to me factory fresh, although it was not refinished. Highly suggest that you get it up to 100% mechanical condition before refinish. My 44 turned out to be a great shooter using black powder or substitute cartridges. I have a dozer or so breaktops and they are fun shooters. Good luck with your new toy!

Today I determined my Top Break is a 44-40 but the serial number of 2991 seems to date it too early to be a Frontier model....any ideas?

My 44-40 with serial number 222 shipped out of the factory on Oct 8, 1887 to M.W. Robinson in New York City, NY according to Mr. Jink's letter. S&W hardly shipped in serial number order. Hope this helps.

Delta would you mind posting a pic of your 44-40?

OK ! Will go thru my archives and post photos as I find them.

Still trying to upload 44-40 photos! These are great shooters!

If it functions I would leave it alone. Here's a picture of my 6.5" .44-40:

Very nice pictures, thanks for posting! Would love to see others as well. Well I have done a fair amount of research over the last week and I believe the best way to go is to make the revolver safe and shootable and no more. I am a big believer in preserving the patina of guns and old cars as they are only original once. I am going to wait for the Jinks letter and then send the gun to David Chicoine to make it shoot worthy. I am open to any other thoughts and ideas. Thanks for all the advice.
Marvin

It's only original once! I'm with you on this.
Its funny, if I had the choice of going to a huge old car show or going to a huge old junkyard full of cars from the '20s-'50s I would choose the junkyard everytime!

I am going to remove the grips on my 44-40 tonight. Should the serial number show up on the grips or on the stock under the gun somewhere?

Ideally, the serial number will be scratched on the inside of the grip, but I think some had pencil marks which may be long gone. There are probably no marks on the frame inside the grip area, since this model used serial numbers to identify the parts. Older models used letters or assembly numbers that were different than the serial number to keep track of the parts.

Only mark that could show up would be a date. That would signify the revolver was returned to the S&W factory for refinish, but there is usually a star near the butt sn if that was the case.

Thank you. I am amazed at the wealth of information on offer here! No luck getting the grips off. Removing the screw was no problem after applying rem oil and letting it sit for a couple days but the grips are on tight and I do not want to risk any damage to the plastic grips by forcing them off. Any suggestions?
I did find the serial number in another place, on what is referred to as the barrel latch I think.
I am still not exactly sure what model Smith & Wesson revolver this is. Can I give more data to help determine the exact model?
Thanks again,
Marvin

You most likely have a .44 Double-Action 1st Model, or soimetimes called Model of 1881. This revolver usually came in 44 Russian caliber. There is also a possibility that it is it could be a 44-40, which is called .44 Double Action Frontier. I did not see any information on whether your gun is 44 Russian or 44-40, so you will have to determine which you have.

If you have a cylinder length of 1 7/16" it can only be a 44 Russian, and if it is 1 9/16 it can be either.

Try backing out the grip screw part way and tap on the screw head with a rubber hammer. The grip on the opposite side should pop free. If not, use a single edge razor blade and slide it in between the frame and the grip on the butt. There is a stud that extends into the grip to keep it in place at the center of the butt. Work you way around with the razor blade until the grip comes loose. These were made out of hard rubber and sometimes get brittle with age so go slow.

Thanks and yes, the cylinder length is 1 9/16 and it is a 44-40 which I assume makes it a Frontier DA 44-40. I will find out for certain when The Letter arrives. I decided to leave well enough alone and not remove the grips. I don't think the risk/reward is worth it. Can't wait to shoot my new toy!
Marvin

Howdy

There is no question of what model you own. S&W only made one large frame top break double action revolver. Generically they were all called the 44 Double Action. They are very distinctive looking, with the vertical cut on the cylinder and the very distinctive trigger and trigger guard. They were only made from 1881 until 1913, although all of the frames had actually been manufactured by 1899. They also came in a target version with target sights, but yours has the standard fixed sights.

As has been stated, most of these guns came chambered for 44 Russian, which is an earlier cartridge than 44 Special. 44 Russian is about 1/10" shorter than 44 Special.

There were some made in 44 WCF and 38 WCF. These were given special names, the 44 WCF version was called the 44 Double Action Frontier, and the 38 WCF version was called the 38 Winchester Double Action. There was also a very rare version called the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite, but that is not what you have. The Favorite was a lighter weight version with metal removed in some areas of the gun.

You have already stated that your revolver is 44 caliber. That narrows it down to either the standard 44DA, or the 44 Double Action Frontier. If you measure the length of your cylinder it will either be 1 7/16" long or 1 9/16" long. The longer cylinder will mean it is the 44 Double Action Frontier, the shorter cylinder, for the early Serial Number you have, will mean it is the standard 44 Double Action, chambedred for 44 Russian. That's really all there is to it. By the way, these guns were never chambered for 44 Special.

I have attached a photo of a few cartridges so you can see their relative lengths, and why the 44 WCF and 38 WCF guns needed the longer cylinders. Left to right in the photo the cartridges are 44 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 44-40 (44WCF), and 38-40 (38WCF). You can see how much shorter the 44 Russian cartridge is. 44 Russian was the cartridge S&W developed for the Russian government when they won a large order to supply the Czarist government with revolvers. It became the most popular 44 cartridge S&W chambered their revolvers for until they developed the 44 Special about 1907. The 44 Special was developed from the 44 Russian. It shares all the same dimensions except it is about 1/10" longer. The 44 Special was developed for S&W's first 44 caliber revolver with a swing out cylinder, popularly known as the Triple Lock.

P.S. I see you are anxious to shoot it. Let me warn you again, do not shoot modern Smokeless ammunition in it. This includes Cowboy ammunition. If you send the gun to Dave Chicoine he will back me up in that statement. Your gun should only be fired with ammunition loaded with Black Powder.

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That's a great looking gun you got for the best price there is!
Really hope its mechanical condition makes it a shooter.
Like twaits said, going to Dave Chicoine is the hot ticket. I have
one firearm he worked on, and I'll jump up and vouch for his work, too.
Bringing back one of these old treasures is a noble thing, in
my book. TACC1

Thanks again for the advice and as I am excited to own such a classic and do want to shoot I absolutely will not even consider shooting the gun until I am certain it is safe to do so! Luckily David Chicoine is located about 2 hrs from me and I will be shipping the gun to him after I recieve my letter and we will decide on a course of action. I am thinking I want to preserve the gun, as opposed to any sort of refurbish. I simply want it to be a shooter, with appropriate ammo, and a conversation piece that will become an heirloom for my family. Quite frankly a gun this old has never been on my radar but I have been pleasantly surprised with the following these guns have by very knowledeable and enthusiastic owners. I would consider adding others to my humble collection.
Marvin

And yes, it is a 44-40 caliber with a 1 and 9/16 chamber.

Another thing I do for stubborn grip removal is simply use a piece of paper. A good heavy paper and some patience. You can eventually work the paper into the crack and keep working it around until the grip loosens.

Well my forensic skills continue to improve thanks to the suggestions of forum members! I was able to get the grips off, I do not see any dating inside the grips although I do see a number of markings. Both grips have an X scribed in the bottom left corner, both grips have the initials WB at the top of the grip and both grips seem to have a name scribed into the middle of the grips. Not sure if this means anything to anyone.....maybe the Jinks letter will tie it all together somehow. Have a look at the pictures and let me know what you think.
Marvin

Its not uncommon for people to scratch or write their name on the inside of the grips. It tough to see in the pictures but can you make out what is written?

Twaits, I have a value question for you or others posting on this thread. I have located a 44 Russian that looks exactly like the 44-40 you have in the lower photo with a shorter barrel, maybe 5". The gun is nickel and I'm not seeing any flecks or spots in the nickel. I don't think the gun is refinished as the hammer and trigger is blue. This gun is about 80% in my estimation and is tight and functions as it should. Caliber is 44 Russian. I can get serial # tommorow.

What would be a low-high value on this model? Owner wants $1000. Is this a fair price. I would like to have it as a collector and not a shooter. I have plenty of other pistols to shoot.

I'm a new member and posted an intro over in that section.

Thanks

Jim

If - and it's a big IF without pictures - the finish is original and almost 100%, then the price you quoted is fair. Usually, refinished guns retain their case hardened hammer and trigger. Only the uneducated gunsmith refinishes the whole gun. Several things to check for . . .

1. Rounded edges, particularly along the sideplate edges. Factory finished guns are perfectly fit, sometimes even hard to see the seam between the frame and the sideplate. Often the edges are slightly rounded in refinished examples.

2. Flattened pins or screws that are buffed without removal. Original pins have a round top and extend beyond the frame.

3. Might be a factory refinished gun, as they usually have a star by the serial number on the butt and a month and year stamped beneath the grips.

4. Gun may have mismatched serial numbers on the major parts - make sure they match. Also, most grips have a matching serial number - make sure they are correct with the age of the gun.

5. Make sure if functions perfectly for this money.

Lots to look for, but if buying an original high finish gun these things greatly affect value. Value of refinished and lesser quality guns often are in the $500 - $700 range. Non-working revolvers bring less.

Hope this helps.

Gary
SWCA #2515

LostintheOzone,
Hammer and trigger should be case hardened and not blue. Pictures would be helpful. You should start another thread with pictures so as to not hijack this one. Then we could get some idea of what kind of condition the gun is in.

Again, thanks to everyone for the solid advice on my antique Smith & Wesson. So....I have a local gunsmith that really wants to work on my revolve, says it will be simple to make it safe to shoot. Conventional wisdom says to be patient and wait for the letter, then send the gun to Chicoine for an evaluation and repairs. In your opinion, what is the upside/downside of letting an eager local work an an old revolver like this.
Marvin

Anxiously awaiting the arrival of "The Letter!" Any day now.....

"In your opinion, what is the upside/downside of letting an eager local work an an old revolver like this."

Most gunsmiths have never popped the sideplate on a gun this old.

I'd wait for David if he is only two hours away.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

My experience with Dave Chicoine was mixed. He was very polite and friendly, which is rare in a gunsmith! :-) However, when I consulted with him about fixing the endshake problem with my DA .44, he seemed a little confused. The gun clearly needed the cylinder to be shimmed slightly rearward, and I suggested that installing an endshake bearing (similar to the Ron Power bearings we often use in modern S&W revolvers) would be a simple and effective fix. Dave insisted this would not work. I was certain I was correct, so I cut a custom bearing from a feeler gauge and popped it in the gun. This resolved the endshake issue, and the gun has been functioning perfectly ever since.

Again, thanks to everyone for your insight and answers to my questions. Is it possible to identify the successors to my gun through the years? This gun has really piqued my interest in Smith & Wesson and would like to add a couple affordable stablemates to my Top Break. Any suggestions?
Marvin

Free up a few bucks and buy either the old Jinks book on S&W or the encyclopaedic Supica and Nahas "Standard Catalog" which is a more of a value guide than history but still very worthwhile and informative.

The Jinks Letter arrived today! It confirms my revolver is a .44 Winchester Double Action Frontier which is now known as a 44-40. The gun was shipped August 8, 1890 and delivered to E.K. Tryon Co. in Philadelphia Pa. Most importantly, the letter confirms the gun is all original as it was shipped with a 5 inch barrel, nickel finish and checkered black hard rubber grips and the as delivered price was $13.75 in 1890! Not sure what that equals in todays dollars? Next up is to make it safe to shoot and then decide to make it perfect or leave it as is. Great gun, great decisions to make!
Marvin

Thanks for your post. I helped out a new couple expecting a baby a few years ago. Knowing that "I like old guns" they gave me this. It was locked up and frozen. Some oil and patience yielded an opening, working revolver. It has a 5" barrel, maybe a once nickel finish, with a serial number 2940. Perhaps I will send off for a letter and consider a restore/refinish for this pistol. Keep us posted on your progress.

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I have one like this except it has the military lanyard at the bottom of the grip. The serial number for it is "6". Not in great shape. I need a set of grips for it and to polish it up. Would like to find what it is worth and exactly what it is.

Welcome to the Forum. This type of request should be posted as a new thread, since not many members will notice your request. The answer with the information provided is fro $500 to $5000. Value is all about condition. There is a huge difference between value of a 90% and a 95% gun.

We need photographs, serial numbers from the bottom of the butt, back of the cylinder, and under the latch. This would be a very low S&W serial number and it is even possible that you have a European copy, so please provide more information.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515