A recent post about a man's Japanese-marked #3 prompted one response stating that the reason those guns almost never are found with cylinder serial numbers matching the gun is that they were shipped from S&W with cylinders separate from the guns.

Is this true, and if so why in the world would S&W have done it this way? I had always thought the mis-matching numbers came from disassembly in Japan and re-assembling with no regard to matching parts.

Thanks for any info

Our current line of thought it that cylinders were mismatched over decades of service with the Japanese military. Do you have any documentation that the cylinders were shipped separately?

C/

Cliff,

I'm the one that made mention that these were shipped with the Cylinders removed!! When I became interested in these Japanese-Shipped Revolvers years ago I was at the library searching for information about Smith & Wessons that were used in the Sino & Russo Japanese Wars when I ran across a photo of a crate of S&W NM#3's being un-packed at what I believe was one of the Japanese Arsenals!! As it's been many years since I saw it I have no clue as to what book I found it in or how to find it again!! Since I finally entered the computer age 7 or 8 yrs. ago I have been searching & searching for that photo with absolutely no luck whatsoever!! Believe me, I've tried every search I could come up with to find it with no success!! I still have the photo etched in my mind like I saw it yesterday, but of course without some documentation or a photo to prove my findings I'm sure most question that such a thing exists!! If I were any kind of an artist I could actually draw a picture as to what they looked like, but since I'm nowhere close I'm not even going to try!! Sorry for the disbelief, but I'm still convinced the Crates did exist & the Cylinders were shipped separately from the Revolvers in the same Shipping Crate!!

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Masterpiece

Shipping the frames and cylinders in separate shipments wouldn’t surprise me very much. If there were any ideas of someone “stealing” the shipment they would have to get both crates to have anything of value. I understand that the Argentines stored their 91 Mauser’s in different armories, one with the rifles and another for the bolts. This was given as a reason it was so hard to find Arg M91 with matching numbers. Just a matter of security
Speaking of pictures…. I remember seeing a picture of a WW2 Japanese squad in a jungle somewhere cleaning their Arisakas. They had all of the bolts boiling in the same pot while they were scrubbing down the rest of the rifle. I wonder what the chances were that the bolts found their way back to the original rifles…..

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean,

I've heard that before myself, but the Cylinders for these NM#3's I saw in the "Mystery" Photo were removed & placed in a compartment below the Frames in the "Same Crate" & the Revolvers were placed above them on some sort of a rack type set-up!! It's really hard to explain without seeing the picture I found!! In hindsight, if I would have known it was going to be that hard to find again in later years I would have checked the book out at the library & never returned it!! This was many years ago when I first started to express interest in them so at the time it wasn't much of a concern!!

On a side note, I believe I may have seen the same photo you saw with the Japanese boiling the parts for their Rifles, but I can't remember where I saw it either!! Regardless, it was something to see!!

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Masterpiece

Thanks very much for the follow up information. This is sure an interesting and seemingly overlooked aspect to these overseas revolver shipments. Sure wish Roy could see this thread and comment to the extent he has any knowledge.

I wonder if domestic S&W revolver shipments were handled the same way, i.e., with cylinders removed until the units reached their destination?

C/

Chip,

I did ask him that question at one time & of course his answer was very vague & had no concrete knowledge!! I didn't think to ask about the domestic shipments in that time period, but I doubt there would have been a different response!! I also suppose it's very possible these Japanese Shipments may not have even been crated at the factory & that's why there isn't any known information as to the existance of the "Mystery Crates" as they very well may have been packed up by the Shipping Agents themselves!! Just speculation on my part!!

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Masterpiece

I still think it most unlikely that S&W would ship the cylinders separated from the guns.

Perhaps the crate Masterpiece saw was something made by the Japanese to facilitate shipping to or from an armory, repair facility, whatever.

My time machine is very close to completion, so before long I can have an answer for you people.

This is excellent news! Please keep us updated on your progress, however, I hope you didn't model it after the one they constructed in the movie "Idiocracy."

C/

This is truly a fascinating discussion. I have been studying the use of Model 3s by the Japanese for just over 25 years. I also attributed the high number of miss-matched cylinders to armorers switching out parts as needed, yet the wear from firing has nearly always been reported to be very minor with Japanese-used model 3s and nearly every gun is reported to be in excellent mechanical condition. Shipping the frames and cylinders separate, and the Japanese assemblers in the 1870s to 1900s not realizing the importance of matching the cylinders to the proper frame, is very plausible.

If any member of this forum has a Japanese-used Model 3 that has not been included in our new booklet "The Japanese Chose The Smith & Wesson" I would certainly like to obtain the details of your revolver, as our study of these revolvers is continuing. You can contact me at the following e-mail address: [email protected] or just call me in Forida at (386) 445-4225 and I can send you a copy of the questionaire.

Frank

Somewhat of a coincidence..... I just finished reading a memoir of a US Marine's experiences of combat on Iwo Jima during WW2.
The book is: "Alligator Marines, A story of the 5th Amphibious Tractor Battalion in WW II" by Donald Marshall

At one point in the book (end of Ch.30) he mentions finding in a captured cave:
In the appendix it was notated:
I wonder what happened to them. To him they were just "trading stock"

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446