Would like to hear you experience loading and shooting. Thanks...........Will

I bought a few boxes of 2nd Amendment 44 American a few years ago. They were fashioned from reformed 41 Remington Mag casings and loaded with original style 218 grain heeled bullets. I reload by hand using 3F and 44 Russian 200 grain bullets. (.430") No need to crimp the cartridge for revolver use and they are quite accurate, given the 8" barrel. Most bullets seat tight, but I use paper patch if needed to hold the bullet secure. I have not come across any company who loads 44 American in years.

You'll find everything you need for the .44 American by Buffalo Arms Co.

W&S

From Donnelly's cartridge conversion handbook, instructions are to start with .41 Magnum cases, trim to 0.88" length, thin rim to 0.05" (if necessary), and FL size. Bullet is 0.434" diameter. Only one load is provided: 200 grain lead bullet, 4.3 grains 230P with MV of 740 f/s. I do not know if .44 American dies are available or what other dies would work, as .44 Special or Magnum reloading dies appear to be slightly too large in diameter.

They load like any other ctg. EXCEPT for the crimping process as it uses a heel base bullet. For that you need a special crimping tool. No major manufacturer makes one but there is a custom mould maker who does. He modifies a Lee Factory Crimp Die and they work perfectly. Cost is about $30 or so. Contact this man:


OLD WEST BULLET MOULDS

One could also use a hollow base lead bullet similar to a Minie ball. I don't know if any design like that is available, would probably need to be about .41 caliber. If a small lathe is available, it might be worthwhile to try drilling a cavity in the base of a .41 Magnum lead bullet.

Just came back from lunch and the market had the new Handloader, with an article on loading the 44 Russian, if that helps.

The original bullet diameter is .434", so I would think a .41 bullet would just rattle down the barrel. My 41 Remington Mag casings loaded for American measure .430" Brass wall thickness is .07", so internal diameter is going to be .419", so heeled bullets would be best. I think that Old West Bullet Moulds make this caliber. OLD WEST BULLET MOULDS

I measured a couple of original 44A cartridges and casing diameter at base is .435", bullet diameter of a US Cartridge is .440", Rem-UMC measures .432", and WRA is .434". Midway USA offers 44 American dies and I would assume other companies may also offer this caliber - $160 for a 3 die set.

Bottom line is that getting set up to properly load this caliber will be costly, so need to decide how often you will go to the range with your American? I shoot mine occasionally, but only a couple of cylinders full a trip, mainly because I do not want to break one, given the difficulty in obtaining parts.

The idea of a hollow base is to allow the bullet to expand under pressure and fill the grooves. It would probably work OK if the bullet was made of soft lead, Probably an academic issue if you don't have the equipment to cast and minie-ize the bullets, or cast the original factory bullet design.

As I have suggested in the past for other odd calibers, use of paraffin bullets and primers is an option if you just want to do some fun shooting in the back yard.

I admit that you would have to be a serious shooter to put all that money into getting set up to properly load a 44 American. These guns are way too valuable to shoot much, so I like the wax bullet route.

Some of you may be familiar with the 577 Enfield Snider rifles that use a hollow base bullet. These were early cartridge rifles for the British Empire. I have several and shoot them often. I have experimented with hollow base bullets for years and have to say that they are very difficult to get right. These 150 year old rifles and muskets have varying bore sizes and the skirts never seem to expand enough in some of the barrels to catch the rifling. The original bullets had a cone shaped wood plug inserted into the base to apply extra pressure on the skirt to do a better job at expanding the bullet. I have tried this method also, but find the actual expansion of these skirts is marginal at best. The best results are obtained by moulding a bullet the size of the bore and let the skirt expand into the rifling when shot. Problem is that if you used a hollow based bullet that was the size of the 44 American bore, you would have to expand the casing when loading, which would make the case too large to chamber. If all you want to do is make smoke and fire a bullet in the general direction of the target, then a smaller size bullet would be fine and maybe that is the way to go for the old American.

Actually, my most accurate load for the 577 rifle is using a round ball that is .002" larger than the bore, so a round ball might provide a simple alternative for those who want to shoot the 44 American.

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I went another route than using round balls in the 44 American. American chambers are not stepped, that allows the 44 Russian round to fit and fire in a 44 American. 44 American will not, however, fit in a Russian chamber (see photo). To simplify the reloading process, I have taken to loading 44 Russian for all my Model 3s and they fire just fine in the American. The brass will expand to fill the chamber upon firing, but for me are still reloadable using 44 Russian dies.

Correction, memory failed me again. The picture is of 44 American rounds in the Russians and since they are bigger (not smaller) they will not chamber. The 44 American is .02" larger diameter than the Russian round.

As I said a few years ago, you just do not want to shoot these old guns all day anyway. Break a part, and you will spend a ton of time trying to find parts and may never run across what you need. Also, you will likely find that after a couple of cylinders full of BP, you cannot make the revolver work anymore without disassembly and cleaning.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I don't understand, the Russian case is considerably larger in diameter than the American. .457 vs .440 (from David Chicoine's book). The Russian case shouldn't chamber in an American cylinder.

I agree about shooting these - don't! You can destroy a piece of history. Find a replica and shoot that.

Joe

Thanks for jogging my memory. You are absolutely correct about the 44 Russian being bigger than the 44 American by .02". It has been 15 years since I shot that 44 American and now recall that it had been bored out to accept a 44 Russian round many decades ago. When I bought that one, I also bought a very expensive box of 44 American ammo from Old Western Scrounger and proceeded to crack every case in the chamber. After checking, I found that a 44 Russian fit fine. That was the only 44 American I shot and it worked well, except for the BP fouling.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Sorry for the confusion, but things sometimes get muddled with so many calibers and guns to think about. I did some checking in the ammo bin and found some reloads left that I had back then and they were 41 Mag brass. I used a 200 grain 44 Russian RN and just crimped the neck slightly with a 44 Russian die. Since I only shot that load in a cut barrel American, I did not need to resize. I used 3F and 4F BP, so use a dipper to fill the case to 1/16" above the base of a seated bullet and they are ready to go.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

One of the 10 original changes to develop the American into the revolver the Russians wanted was to make a better cartridge. The Russians appear to have not liked the exposed lubrication groove on the heeled bullet (lube does no good if it is on the smaller diameter heel). So, the change was to keep the same diameter bullet and bore the cylinder chambers out .010 oversize on each wall for the length of the cartridge case (so .020 for the total diameter). The .010 was the thickness of the cartridge case at that time. This allowed the lubrication grooves of the bullet to be inside the case. The constant diameter bullet also gave better bullet contact with the lands and grooves of the bore (a heeled bullet only makes contact with the lands with the front part of the bullet). It also slightly increased the case capacity and allowed a slightly more powerful as well as more accurate cartridge.

My understanding was that the original bore diameter and bullet diameters were retained and only the cylinder bores were altered. Knowing the way Smith & Wesson worked in that period, I have difficulty thinking that they would change the barrel bore diameter for only part of their production. This would also explain the revolvers sold with extra separate cylinders in the Russian caliber.
David Chacoine's book says that the Russian bores are smaller but no place can I find numbers. I have quite a few original Russian (Cyrillic marked) No. 3s but don't have an early American to measure the bore. Some research is definitely in order?
Joe

I started collecting Model 3s about 35 years ago. I had owned them for over 15 years before I attempted shooting one of them.

I started with a mechanically sound but lower value 44 DA 1st. In Tulsa back around 1995, I purchased a military ammo can full of 44R where the paper boxes had deteriorated but the ammo appeared quite sound. After shipping it back to myself, I got out one of my "expendables" (the 44 DA 1st)

About 1 of 10 looked so bad, I did not dare try to shoot them. Of the remaining rounds I tumbled lightly (no polish in the media) about 50 at a time. I shot very cautiously. About 3 out of 10 did not fire. Of those about 7 of 10 that did fire, fired perfectly.

After using about 200 rounds, I did not get 1 squibb. The blast (no pun intended) is that it was original black powder loads with Fulminate mercury primers. There was this momentary delay between the hammer dropping and the explosion to fire the bullet. It was like being in an old cowboy movie. In the old cowboy movies in the silent days, they intentionally used black powder for the visual effect of the billowing smoke to see the gun fired. Your mind (and usually a single drum tap) animates the "BANG" in the silent films. Amazing !

Next comes Tom Blair (RIP) who was a friend, mentor and fellow member of the S&WCA and the Palm Beach Collectors Assn.

He REGULARLY shot his Single Action Model 3s and 2 of his favorite Americans. What a great guy !

He sat with me a few nights to give me pointers on loading 44R but we never had time to get deeply in to the 44 American.

This Monday I picked up an oldiethat I purchased the week before. It is an American 1st in outstanding condition ... (at an outstanding price, too, to match the outstanding condition).

Getting it home I opened up the big boy cookie jar and supply cabinet to find 3 more older Americans to decide(after all these years,) I am GOING to shoot one of these. In fact I will do it very soon.

Tom Blair left me about 25 old factory pack .44A rounds (which I doubt will fire) and about 40 reloaded .44 Americans. HIS .44 American loads. Tom also gifted me a set of .44 R dies, .45 S&W Schofield dies, but I cannot find the .44 American dies. There was some short change process he had in making the .44 American rounds.

And I found another surprise ... look at the attached pix

The major emphasis of Tom's advice was ... follow Phillip Sharpe and you can never go wrong.

He had been loading reduced charges of smokeless powder for the .44 Russian and .45 S&W Schofield per Phillip Sharpe.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I'm going to take it slow and easy. I figure I will try a few gallery loads in the .44 American before I go for anything more powerful. Stay tuned !

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I'm all ears Sal...

Joe, what would be the proper method to measure the bore ? I have 4 chambered in 44A including a beauty original I just purchased, 2 more in nice condition and a Transition that had been factory refurbished by S&W in 1926. How about I measure all of them ?

I have a short (but quality) set of machinist's tools and gauges, plus a a full set of mechanics tool that include engine rebuilder's tools, inside micrometer sets, e.g. for cylinder bore but he smallest those inside mikes go to is appx 1".

I also have a nice set of bronze jags but not sure how accurate the specs on the jags would be (it is a Midway set IIRC).

Can you recommend a quality inside micrometer set made specifically for for firearms, that won't break the bank ? Preferably as set that I can use on other projects in addition to the 44A ? Thanks.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I would try an expanding small hole gauge. Starrett tools makes a set or they can be bought individually. 829D Small Hole Gage
It will still be difficult to measure as these have 5 lands and grooves, i.e. you cannot just measure across the dia.

I was going to start the measurement of mine after Turkey day - I have to dig the gauges out of my old machinist's box. Measure your early Americans and I will measure the range of my Russian Contracts.
Everybody have a good Thanksgiving!
Joe

There is also the method of 'Slugging' the Bore. Some take a slightly oversized soft lead bullet or even a Fishing Sinker and force it through the barrel with a piece of Dowel and a hammer. The 'Slug' can then be measured and you will get accurate specs for both Grooves and Lands - this is important because you want both to work out the ideal sized Projectile. Guys with Guns that can vary in Bore Size do this before ordering their Bullet Mould for casting.

I always thought this was a pretty extreme way of doing it. There is apparently a Product called 'Cerrosafe' which is a soft putty type stuff (?) you can push into the bore and it will harden so you can push it out and it gives you a reverse mould that can then be measured. Normal Automotive Body Filler is also something that can be used. A smear of vegetable oil can be used to ensure easy removal without damage to your 'Slug' - or your bore.

You can measure with a pair of Vernier Calipers; but as Grooves and Lands are often opposite each other, some guesswork comes into play. You will be hard pressed to find a place in most Bores where you can get an accurate measurement straight across and find either Land to Land or Groove to Groove, so the Slug is probably the way to go.

I have a box of .44 Russian ammo from them.
I got it cheap, at the LGS, during the 2013 panic.
I couldn't find .44 Spl anywhere, and wanted to supplement my supply of handloads.

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What would Jim Cirillo do?

Cerrosafe is not a "soft putty like substance". It is a metal alloy with a very low melting point. I can be melted in boiling water, so does not require any special equipment. The unique feature of the particular Cerrosafe alloy is its characteristic of returning to the exact bore or chamber size after a specific time so that the cast can be removed, then measured very precisely, if you have the correct micrometer for measuring a 5 sided object. Such mikes are available, but are expensive. They are used to measure reamers and drills with odd numbered flutes. I am not aware of any inside mikes for measuring bores with odd numbered lands and grooves. For revolvers, it is probably adequate to measure the mouths of the chambers to determine correct bullet diameter, and that can be done a number of ways.

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Tom
1560

My problem is that I am going to have to measure about 20 revolvers to get figures for the S&W as well as the Ludwig Loewe and Tula production. I have the examples so that is not the problem, but time is.
I think I can get good measurements with the tool I specified. I have never worked as a practicing gunsmith, but I have worked as a tool room machinist.
The casting or slugging procedures work well but are time consuming. I will probably test my measurements by slugging a sample and comparing the results.
Joe

Thanks for that way more accurate description Skeetr; I obviously only had a vague idea of what the stuff is and I'm even more taken with the idea of now I'm properly informed.

Maybe a well equipped Machine Shop would have the correct Micrometer to do the right measurements. It would seem one would get a very precise result with this method.

Joe having the relevant experience would also no doubt get the Measurements as close as anyone would.

It will interesting to see some Figures and ascertain if much variation exists in the American Bores and if the Nominal .434'' is accurate..

Rx for black powder fouling (if there's room in your case): Corn meal on top of the powder. Some's good, more's better, and too much is just right!

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph. You know i respect your advice. How, exactly, does that work ? I had read (can't remember where or when) dry patching the powder then grease / lube of some sort. Patch to separate the powder from the lube or grease. Doesn't make sense as the grease / lube with heat would melt, I'd think, making the powder inert.

Since this American thread started, there are a bunch of us on a "roll" who would like to load something safe for these beauties. An old friend (Tom Blair, RIP) of mine used to shoot his old American, Russians and NM3s regularly. I have a handful of his American loads. Looks like I'm going to have to reverse engineer the loads he gifted me to the best of my ability

It seems like us yungguns are making a big deal out of something the old timers loaded regularly without a second thought.

I think I'm not alone when I say that "our" caution is not wanting to blow up an old beauty, some of which are worth a few dollars more that we earn in a month. ... while not even considering we might lose body parts in the process. LOL !

Like the lawyer screaming at a woman for clipping off the door on his new Mercedes that HE opened on the street side of heavy traffic yelling "LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO MY BRAND NEW MERCEDES" to which she responds .... but your ARM !. Your ARM has been torn off !!! To which HE quickly quips ... " AND MY ROLEX. TOO !!!!"

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I'm leaning towards starting with "gallery" loads with a round ball and working my way up from there. I think your concept of slugging the barrel is good ideal.

I found this guy ... check it out. So Simple. he forgets one step, he unloads a live round, using the case for melting lead in to but never mentions that the primer should be taken out, first. You can see from the shape when he's done that the primer pocket was empty but can you imaging using a burner to heat up a casing while melting lead into it with a live primer ? Is it just me or did I miss something here. See Part 1 and part 2

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Corn Meal------------"How, exactly, does that work?"

That's an excellent question, Sal-----I really don't know--kind'a like a scouring powder, I reckon. Here's how I came to know what I know: I was on a kick to demonstrate/prove the further a bullet traveled in the throat before engaging the rifling, the worse the accuracy. (I also collect Rugers---"Old Model Single Actions" (1953-1973). I have all of them (and the variations which interest me)---except the Lightweights---which God and I agreed weren't real guns.) An "Old Army" (cap & ball) was pressed into service. The first load was 20 grains of FFFG black powder (measured, not weighed), somebody's greased wad (Uncle Mike's maybe), and a Speer .457" round ball. That load seats DEEEEEEEEEEEP within the chamber. That load produced a very unsatisfying 6 shot group of about 4" at 25 yards. Fast forward to the same load, with 20 grains of corn meal on top of the powder. That load seats essentially flush with the end of the chamber---call it zero throat---or damn near. That load produces 6 shot groups of one ragged hole---substantially covered with a quarter.

Along the way--loads with 5, 10, and 15 grains of corn meal produced a markedly cleaner revolver---inside AND out. When I had proven what I set out to prove, then I just sat and shot---at several different distances-----with the GOOD load. I don't know how many rounds I fired----A BUNCH. The gun stayed "clean"---which is to say it was dirty---but still shooting with no problems of any sort---smooth as silk! I was a believer---both as respects the throat business---AND the corn meal.

Try it, you'll like it!!

Ralph Tremaine

Having now done the math, the gun was fired 6 times with each load-----6 with no corn meal, and 24 with (the four differing amounts of corn meal). The last six loads (the GOOOOOOOOD group) were fired from the gun dirtied by all those which preceded it. The unknown number of loads fired after that (each with 20 grains of corn meal) were also fired from a dirty gun---which is to say the gun got cleaned once--------when I was through shooting it. It's been sitting on the shelf ever since----good as new!! And it's worth noting the bore, while certainly not squeaky clean, wasn't even remotely crudded up. It just looked like an everyday dirty bore---one used with smokeless powder.

It has popped into my mind, that while nobody might give a rat, I may have misled you about these loads. The first was as stated---powder/wad/ball. All those following were almost certainly powder/corn meal/wad/ball---not because I remember, but only because it makes sense. To put the wad on the powder, then the corn meal means I would have to have seated the wad on the powder (to make room for the corn meal). THAT would have been a large pain in the butt---and I don't do pains---large or small.

I have loaded for the 44 Evans which I am pretty sure is just a longer version of the 44 American and I believe the same techniques will work. It does require some equipment though. I start with 44 magnum brass just because it is so available. 44 Russian would probably be easier. Load with black powder and a .429 bullet, do not crimp. I then force the cartridge into a 44 American die with an arbor press. It will stop at the solid head. Chuck it in a lathe collet and turn the head down to the same diameter as the body of the case. The bullet will have been transformed into a heeled projectile of exactly the right dimensions. I leave one grease groove ahead of the case mouth. I believe that the reduced base will expand to fill the grooves but even if it does not it will work pretty well.