Did I buy a Russian, or a FrankenRussian?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

About two weeks ago a pal called me and said there was a Russian for sale in a local shop. He said it looked pretty good. I got a chance to look at it yesterday. First thing I noticed is the number on the rear of the cylinder and on the barrel latch did not match the SN on the butt. So right away my alarm bells went off saying 'parts gun'. Not a deal breaker, but I felt pretty sure the gun had been put together at some point with a frame from one gun and a barrel and cylinder from another gun. At least all my other experience with Top Break S&W revolvers let me to believe this. My New Model Number Three, as well as a bunch of 32 and 38 Top Breaks all have the same number at the butt, rear of the cylinder, latch, and near the latch on the barrel 'top strap'.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe Russians are different?

The really weird thing is, the other number, 1115, is also stamped on the frame under one of the grips. The dealer told me the other number, 1115, is just an assembly number, but that is not my experience. But the funny thing is that 1115 showing up on the frame under the grips.

I took the grips off, and they are correctly numbered to the SN at the base of the butt. So they probably left the factory with the gun. The markings on the barrel look correct to me for a 2nd Model Russian.

The other thing is, there is a noticeable difference in the finish of the frame,vs the barrel and cylinder. The frame still has some nice high polish on it, and the blue is a bit deeper. The barrel and cylinder have less shine and are more of a deep brownish gray than blue. So much more ammo for me to think they are from separate guns.

On the plus side, the gun times beautifully. The latch comes down smartly and there is no play at all. The chambers and bore are beautiful with no rust or pitting at all. There is a slight amount of side play at the hinge, which might be indicative of a barrel swap.

Well to make an already long story a bit shorter, a fool and his money are soon parted, and I liked the gun well enough, even if it is a parts gun, that I bought it. So I have a bunch of pictures to illustrate it.

The slight color difference between the frame and the barrel and cylinder is visible in these two photos.





Here is a photo of the SN on the butt. I grayed out the last two digits. Yes, the gun has a lanyard loop, which I also understand is incorrect for a 2nd Model Russian. I also understand the letters SH in a diamond indicate it was sold through Schuyler Hartley Graham.



OK, now for the other number. Here is the rear of the cylinder.



Underside of the latch.



I do not find any number anywhere on the barrel, including near the latch, where it shows up on all of my other Top Breaks.

Now here is the confusing number. Stamped under the grip on the frame. Did S&W stamp this there if they rebuilt the gun? Did somebody else stamp it there to try and fool somebody? That is the big question.





One more photo, the markings on top of the barrel. Looks correct to me for a commercial Russian.






So what do you all think. Did I walk home with a Russian with unusual numbers, or did I walk home with a parts gun? I won't be disappointed if it is a parts gun, that is what I suspect. Although I would be thrilled if somehow all the gun left the factory this way.

Thanks.

[glowe]

You have a great matching #s 2nd Model Russian. This model and the 3rd Model used assembly numbers for all parts. The cylinder, latch, barrel, and left side of the stock frame all match with assembly numbers. The serial number only appears on the butt and right stock.

I have a Second Model Commercial with assembly numbers 1188 that has a serial number 51682 on the butt and 51782 on left stock. Since the stock number is exactly 100 different, I assume they were original with the gun, probably not caught by the gunsmith who put this gun together.

I just noticed the SH stamp on the butt. I think that is a trademark for Schuyler, Hartley & Graham, a New York distributor for S&W.

[mmaher94087]

Driftwood,
Take it to the bank. Unless I missed something, your Russian IS all original. What you said about "more modern" S&W's and the repetion of the serial numbers is correct but, the 'older' stuff had assembly numbers and the Serial Number was on the bottom of the frame and on the inside of the stocks. Nice find. Mike #283

[cobretti]

I recently acquired a 3rd Model Commercial Russian with similar stampings. The Serial number on the butt matches the number on the right stock (45XXX). The cylinder, latch and barrel have 7512 stamped on them. Could this also be an original Russian?

[opoefc]

Driftwood, As said above, your Russian model is a 100% Kosher gun. Your dealer was correct on the assembly number question.

cobretti, You may also have a correct revolver. Post some pictures, and we can tell you exactly. Good luck,
Ed.

[Driftwood Johnson]

WOW!

Great news! I would have been happy if it turned out to be a parts gun, but you guys really made my day telling me it is all original!

By the way, I just found the matching number on the barrel too!

Last night I took the gun apart a bit to get it ready to shoot Black Powder cartridges. The parts inside the frame are almost mint. There is still some case hardening color on the hammer.



I oiled it up with my Black Powder compatible solvent, and put it back together again. Today I took it to the range and fired a box and a half of my Black Powder 44 Russian rounds through it. As I said, the bore and the chambers are almost mint. Just the tiniest bit of pitting in the bore near the forcing cone. I set up my targets at about 25 feet. The target on the left was shot from a rest, the one on the right was shot offhand. The only reason the group opened up so much with the offhand target is because the trigger pull is HUGE. Probably about 10 or 15 pounds. There is no noticeable creep, the trigger breaks cleanly, but it takes a lot of force to pull it. I let the strain screw out a turn or so to relieve the hammer spring force a tad, but it did not help much. I have no intention of going inside and grinding springs down or doing anything to the sear, I will leave everything just as it is.




What great fun, shooting such an incredibly cool old gun, even better now that you guys told me it is all original. I found the number on the barrel, right where it should be, near the latch, while cleaning the gun.

I will say the Russians were crazy insisting on the huge knuckle on the frame and the upturned hammer spur. No way my thumb could reach the hammer spur without regripping the gun for every shot. Maybe the Russians had really long thumbs.

My only problem is it is tricky getting the cylinder back in with the ratchet properly indexed. Took about ten tries before I got it right. I do notice that the two arrows on the hinge are now completely lined up together, so I assume they are indicators showing the proper alignment.

Again, thanks for the terrific news. I'm going to letter this one.

[glowe]

Russians are huge and heavy guns and the heavy trigger pull you have is standard. Maybe this was the revolver that started the 2 hand hold, since you need both to make these things work!

Interesting that your gun and mine have a smooth finish without any rust or pitting. A very durable and well made Smith.

[cobretti]

Here's mine, and like I said, the latch, barrel & cylinder are all stamped 7512. The butt and right stock are stamped 45824. The number on the left grip frame appears to be 4666. I know it's been renickeled, so what do you guys think? Could it have originally come from S&W stamped this way?

[jleiper]

Lanyard loops are correct for late 1st and all 2nd and 3rd model No 3s. If the lanyard was not present, there was a filler screw put in to fill the threaded hole. The shape of the lanyard ring on Driftwood's revolver is consistent with the lanyard rings seen on 1st models and may not be original or could be S&W using old parts. Originals for the second model are almost round.
DSCN2482A.jpg
Second model lanyard ring
Joe

[cobretti]

According to David Chicoine's book, "Sixguns of the Old West", on page 125 it states that "Third Model Russians did away with the fitter's numbers. Instead the serial number now appeared on all major parts."

I had read somewhere that the Commercial guns were stamped differently. Could this be the case with our two guns posted here?

[jleiper]

Originally Posted by cobretti

According to David Chicoine's book, "Sixguns of the Old West", on page 125 it states that "Third Model Russians did away with the fitter's numbers. Instead the serial number now appeared on all major parts."

I had read somewhere that the Commercial guns were stamped differently. Could this be the case with our two guns posted here?

I have serious questions about how the Commercials were numbered, especially the late second models and third models. I also have questions about the serial ranges on the two later models - observed examples don't seem to match the published descriptions.

I do know that after the first 500 first model revolvers in the first contract ALL Russian contract revolvers had full serial numbers.
Joe

[cobretti]

I'm going to go ahead and believe that my gun is in it's original configuration (excepting the renickel). It seems to conform with what I've seen or read. If anyone has any further info, please share as I'm always checking over here anyway!

[glowe]

Both of these guns are close enough to the correct range to qualify as a solid commercial model, which should be stamped Russian Model. I have great respect for David Chicoine, but when I want the best information available, I turn to Roy Jinks books. His information states that most Third Model commercial guns fall between 39,000 and 52,500 and 1-9,000. Driftwood's gun is slightly earlier, but still close to the range and yours is right in the range as well.

There may well be some Third Model Russians that used serial numbers for all parts, since S&W changed their stampings in the 1870's. I have not seen a Third Model Commercial with all serial numbers and those I own all use assembly numbers. Best practice here is to make sure the stock frame has the serial number on the butt and the assembly number under the stocks. I have not seen a counterfeit Russian use that method to stamp their copies.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Here is an update about my Russian.

Last Sunday I attended a local Cowboy match and brought along the Russian. The only holster I have that it fit into is an old Hunter holster with a strap that snaps over the hammer. Works fine in a pinch, but I plan on getting a nice holster made specifically for the gun over the winter. This match allows me to shoot my DA 44, so the Russian and the DA were my pistols that day.

Those Russians must have had really long thumbs. No way my thumb could reach the hammer spur, curving up like it does, if I held the gun properly with my hand below the knuckle on the frame. I had to regrip in order to reach the hammer, then regrip again to shoot the gun. Not too much of a problem because the trigger is so heavy I did not worry too much about an AD. I even shot one stage cocking the hammer with my left hand, then letting go and shooting it with one hand. I made the mistake a couple of times shooting it without the proper grip, and even with the heavy gun and my light 44 Russian loads, that hump smacked my palm uncomfortably. I completely forgot that the gun shoots high, and I only missed one target in six stages, so shooting high is not a problem at normal SASS distances.

About the hook under the trigger guard. No, it does not help steady the gun if the middle finger rests on it. Much too awkward. I completely ignored the hook, grabbing the gun no differently than I would a modern S&W revolver.

I went home and cleaned my two old Smiths, happy as a clam. I will not shoot this old girl every match, but I will probably shoot it more often than my New Model Number Three, because it is not quite as shiny.

Here is a photo of last Sunday's Main Match Pistols.



I will definitely be lettering this gun.

[peppercorn]

That's pretty neat, Driftwood', I really like to see and read about the Antiques 'in action'.

I was wondering, do you shoot the 44 DA in single or double action when you are competing?

Also, what is your clean up procedure after shooting, including empties?

[Driftwood Johnson]

peppercorn

I am already bending the rules when I shoot my old DA 44 at a CAS match. It is not a legal gun, but some local matches allow me to shoot it. So I only fire it single action, although 'competing' is stretching things a bit for me. My own personal goal at a CAS match is always to shoot a clean match, in other words hit all the targets. I don't give a hoot for how fast I shoot.

When cleaning a gun after shooting it with Black Powder I use a solution commonly known as Murphy's Mix. Equal proportions of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol, and drugstore Hydrogen Per Oxide. This mixture is actually mostly water, and it is the water that does the actual dissolving and rinsing away of the BP fouling. The Oil Soap leaves behind an oily residue to prevent rust, the Per Oxide provides a mild fizzing action, and the alcohol serves as a drying agent.

My brass goes into a jug of water that has a squirt of dish soap added. This has to be done reasonably promptly after shooting or the brass will quickly begin to corrode. Once I get it home, I rinse out the brass repeatedly with cold water then lay it out to air dry.

[cobretti]

I had my Russian out last Friday and put a couple dozen rounds through her. Mine also shoots very high with a very mild recoil. Now that my curiosity has been satisfied, I think I can keep from shooting it for a while.

[nicky4968]

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I have always found the Russian interesting. Never had the opportunity to shoot one, although I have held one of the Italian reproductions. If the spur does not help steady the gun with the middle finger on it, perhaps it is to be used with the index finger of the off-hand in a two-hand hold?
Anyone have pictures of Russian officers at target practice with this thing?

[opoefc]

Somewhere in the old S&W or UMC 19th century advertising material, I've seen a drawing or photo of the Czar and some Russian officers shooting the Russian model revolver. Marcus Hartley, who founded the United Metallic Cartridge Co. after the Civil War, got the contract with the Russians to make the new ammo. ( .44S&W Russian caliber ) for the new Russian contract with S&W for the revolvers. Russian Army officers were assigned to the S&W and UMC factories as inspectors. Hartley recorded in his memoirs that the Czar attended a demonstration of the new revolver and was furnished a S&W revolvers and the new UMC ammo. from the first shipments. The first two shots attempted by the Czar were misfires, due to faulty ammo. The Russian officers on site, responsible for the ammo. inspectors at UMC was promptly shot on orders of the Czar. ( It was not recorded which ammo. was used to execute the officer!) Thereafter, inspection of the ammo. became very diligent at UMC. Ed.