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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 11-18-2012, 05:13 PM
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Default The S&W Perfected Target Pistol explained...



“It looks like a revolver, but it’s not a revolver!” are the words exclaimed by most people when they first encounter this interesting target pistol. They are seldom found today, but a good condition Smith & Wesson Perfected Target Pistol can still be depended on to render excellent results in target shooting. In fact, an old and good friend of mine claims to have used one in the early 1960s. He told me that for him it outshot any other small bore target arm existing at the time for slow-fire competition. Not bad credentials for an arm first made in 1909 and discontinued in 1923!

The evolution of this top-notch target pistol began as a conversion of the .38 Single Action Third Model Revolver. That revolver could be had with an accessory single shot barrel in .22 Long Rifle, .32 S&W, or .38 S&W. This conversion was known as the Model of 1891. It went into production in 1893 and could be ordered in 6”, 8”, or 10” lengths. Oversized hard rubber target grips were offered as an option. This style of grips was also used on later single shot pistols and the famed “Bekeart” .22/32 target revolver first produced in 1911. Sights on this conversion barrel were the Smith & Wesson adjustable target type. As the conversion became popular, Smith & Wesson soon began making complete pistols on this design; these are now known as First Model Single Shots. They can be identified as factory-complete pistols by the fact that the serial number is on the front grip strap. Since the larger target grips covered the butt of the grip where serials usually appeared, this change was necessary. These factory-produced single shots lacked a cylinder stop or a cylinder-rotating hand in the action. At the same time, a combination revolver/single shot arm was also cataloged as an option. It utilized the standard revolver frame complete with a hand and cylinder stop. All versions retained the cylinder recoil shield of the parent revolvers, and the separately-crafted trigger guard. The factory then began reworking the frames to make them function only as single shots, abandoning the “two guns for one” idea, which probably made economic sense for the company.

In 1905, the Second Model Single shot was introduced. The recoil shields were eliminated, making the sides of the pistol flat. This model continued in production until the factory ran out of the parent frames for the .38 Single Action Third Model. This gun was offered in a choice of blue or nickel finish, with a 10” barrel only. Some 6” and 8” barrels were factory installed on special order, as there were plenty left over from First Model production. All of these Second Models were chambered in .22 Long Rifle only. Serial numbers were a new and separate run, beginning with 1 and ending with 4,617 in 1909.

The factory had used up all of the original frames, and in 1909, they began using the frame of the .38 Perfected Double Action. This frame was a double action design, having the trigger guard as an integral part of the frame. The removable side plate was now on the right of the frame rather than the left. Inasmuch as the parent revolver was a double action design, the Third Model was also made as a double action, a dubious feature. As with the parent revolver, the hammer could be brought to full cock with the thumb, giving a very nice crisp single action trigger pull. This Third Model was called the “Perfected” due to the use of the .38 frame of the same name. The oversized target grips were now made of walnut rather than hard rubber. Produced until 1923, the serial numbers of this arm began as a continuation of the Second Model string, beginning with 4,618 and ending with 11,641. 6,949 were manufactured. They were offered with 10” barrels and a blued finish only. Various styles of front and rear sights were offered, including Patridge and Ira Paine types. All were shipped in a hinged-lid purple or lavender box with instructions printed inside the lid. The particular pistol illustrated for this article left the factory in March, 1914.

A rare variation of this pistol was called the Olympic Model. The factory had been experimenting with ways to make the pistol more accurate for Olympic competition. They found that if the chamber were made shorter so that the cartridge had to be forced in for the last 1/16”, seating the bullet into the rifling, better accuracy would result. Most guns were not chambered in this manner, as it made the gun difficult to load, and only an Olympic-level shooter could utilize the accuracy improvement. However, Olympic barrels could be special ordered, and some were, due to their reputation for accuracy. The only way to tell if the barrel is an Olympic variation is to put a round into the chamber. If it goes in easy, it’s a standard barrel, and if it has to be pressed in to fully chamber, it’s the unusual Olympic chambering.

Operation of the Perfected Target Pistol is easy. To open the barrel, press up on the knurled knob just in front of the rear sight blade with either thumb. Pull down on the barrel, rotating it down. If a loaded round or empty case is in the chamber, the automatic extractor will pull it up and extract it. The extractor will then snap back into place. Insert a loaded round and rotate the barrel up until it clicks back into place in the frame. The gun can then be cocked and fired single action, or by a double action pull on the trigger. Why this latter feature was put on these pistols, I don’t know, as a double action single shot target pistol seems a bit unnecessary and counterproductive!

The Perfected Target Pistol ended the era of revolver-framed single shot target pistols when it was discontinued in 1923. It and its two predecessors were quite popular and had been instrumental in setting records around the world. S&W thus established a fine reputation for precision firearms that were capable of very accurate shooting. In handling one of these arms today, it’s quite evident that it was produced with a great deal of professional hand labor. The parts mate perfectly and work together with a smoothness that has to be felt to be appreciated. It balances well and hangs steadily in the hand. The carefully bored and rifled barrel, the long sighting radius, the extended stocks and the crisp single action trigger all contributed to great scores in the hands of competition shooters of the early 20th Century.

Although the Perfected Target was the last revolver-framed single shot, it was not the last single shot made by Smith & Wesson. In 1920, the company circulated a questionnaire among target shooters, asking them what they’d like to see in a successor to this pistol. The consensus was that a new pistol should have the shape of an autoloader, and that the hammer and trigger should move in straight line to provide for minimal sight disturbance. Following these suggestions, the company made their fourth and final single shot, called the Straight Line. It did indeed resemble an autoloader, with a grip angle similar to that used on the Model 1911 service pistol. The .22 LR 10” barrel was provided with the Olympic chamber. Introduced in 1925, it was a flop on the marketplace. The trigger pull was erratic, and if over-lubricated, the pistol’s tight tolerances made the hammer fall light enough to cause malfunctioning. The Straight Line model was dropped from the company catalog in 1936 after only 1,870 were produced and sold. The success of the Perfected Target Pistol was never equaled again in a single-shot Smith & Wesson. It’s a true classic handgun and a curiosity today wherever displayed.

(c) 2012 JLM

Hope you enjoyed this brief summary of a unique pistol.

John
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:23 PM
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Good reading and very enlightning. Thanks.

________
James
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:01 AM
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John, Very nice essay. S&W received various responses to the questionnaire they circulated, and made up some experimental models along the lines of some of the suggestions. Several suggestions were for an American model to be built along the lines of the second model single shot. It had a flat "cylinder" and a .22cal. barrel liner running from the muzzle back through the flat "cylinder" to a rim fire firing pin. I have this gun in my collection. Several years ago, Dan Meigs photographed the gun and posted the pictures on the Forum. Ed.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:38 AM
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I enjoyed reading this write-up.
Thanks!
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:48 AM
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Great write up, John! Thank you for posting it.
I have never seen a picture of one of these interesting/rare models...let alone seen one in person.
You are very lucky to have acquired a beautiful PTP.
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Old 11-19-2012, 01:23 PM
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Default The S&W Perfected Target Pistol

Very interesting, very informative and very well written, thanks for the information John.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:21 PM
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Wow great read, thank you!
-Jesse
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Old 12-01-2012, 02:32 AM
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A clean example of one of these is high on my list of "must-haves". Very classy, interesting pistol. Thanks for the essay!
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:06 PM
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Hi John,
My first time on here. Thank you for the information. My dad passed back in 2007 and left me this from his dad. It looks like the picture except for fact that there is no insignia in the steel on the right side. It is in the wooden butt toward the top.
And the largest screw on the gun in the pic on the right side is on the left side on mine. It matches the other things you said with the serial number being 8523. So it sounds like the "Perfected"?
Anything else you can tell me about this? I wish I would have asked my dad more about it when he was still with us.

Thanks for your help,

John
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Old 12-20-2012, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jnelson2570 View Post
Hi John,
My first time on here. Thank you for the information. My dad passed back in 2007 and left me this from his dad. It looks like the picture except for fact that there is no insignia in the steel on the right side. It is in the wooden butt toward the top.
And the largest screw on the gun in the pic on the right side is on the left side on mine. It matches the other things you said with the serial number being 8523. So it sounds like the "Perfected"?
Anything else you can tell me about this? I wish I would have asked my dad more about it when he was still with us.

Thanks for your help,

John
John, I suggest you post a couple of good-quality digital pictures here, one of each side the gun your father left you. Then it will be easier for the folks here on the forum, whose collective knowledge is considerable, to help you out on this.

There are threads here on how to post digital pictures through such free services as Photobucket.

Hope this helps.

John
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:12 PM
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My single shot:
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:28 AM
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Very nice!
That is the first time I've ever seen S&W single shots the likes of these! I clicked because it was the first thread I saw in my first visit to the forum. First visit and I'm already finding new to me firearms that look like they would be a lot of fun! I'll add this firearm to my list of stuff I want to learn more about. Even though the thread seems to have most of everything I need to know. Nice pics everyone!
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:08 AM
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Very nice. I've been a fan of all the single shots my entire adult life with special emphasis on the 1891, 1st models and the 3rd models.

Of the 3rd model Perfected I have 5, 2 of which are Olympic barrels if I had been advised correctly.

I had been educated by elder members (of which I now "are" one) to qualify as Olympic barrel when inserting a .22 LR Cartridge, it will meet resistance and hesitate with about 1/8" yet to go, which then has to be pressed firmly that the projectile actually cuts into the rifling.

I never lettered any of them but wonder if a letter would show if it had been manufactured with the Olympic barrel.

Very nice presentation and evaluation !
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:46 AM
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I never lettered any of them but wonder if a letter would show if it had been manufactured with the Olympic barrel.
I believe so. I think I looked at one for sale about a year ago. Was priced too high, so I passed on it, but I seem to recall it lettered as such.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:25 PM
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I believe so. I think I looked at one for sale about a year ago. Was priced too high, so I passed on it, but I seem to recall it lettered as such.
No worries ... when you come visit, just choose which one you like best. It will be a difficult decision, for sure.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:39 PM
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No worries ... when you come visit, just choose which one you like best. It will be a difficult decision, for sure.
Actually, that isn't too far from the truth! As I don't have one and like them, I might just choose one...or 5! Looking forward to a visit to Florida later this year!
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Old 06-20-2017, 01:18 PM
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Actually, that isn't too far from the truth! As I don't have one and like them, I might just choose one...or 5! Looking forward to a visit to Florida later this year!
You are very welcomed to visit for the day. I'm looking forward to meeting you.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:05 PM
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At a gun store in wpb, FL
There are two for sale, kinda rough looking.
I think 12 hundred and 1500 bucks.
In case anyone is interested.
PM for store name if interested, they don't sell online or ship.
Regards
Mike
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Old 06-21-2017, 11:54 PM
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Olympic barrels----------the rest of the story (some of it anyway).

This from Roy Jinks--followed by a remark to the effect there's a lot more (research) to be done: "This model after serial number 9548 was available with a special barrel which is called the Olympic barrel. This barrel is designed in such a manner that the bullet must be forced into the rifling. The purpose of the Olympic barrel was to eliminate any misalignment that the bullet would have before engaging the rifling. This type of barrel improved the accuracy slightly over our standard barrel. These barrels were originally designed for the United States Olympic Team of 1908. The total production (regular production, I reckon) of Olympic barrels is 2,093 units. They were also supplied on special request and are found throughout the production series as replacement barrels."

In no particular order, some additional tid-bits:

A letter does not identify guns shipped with Olympic barrels.

A letter does tell the reader how to identify an Olympic barrel.

The last 3rd Model SS serial number is 11641. If one were to subtract 2,093 (the number of Olympic barreled pistols made noted above) from 11,641 (the last serial number) one would have a remainder of 9,548 (9548 being the starting serial number noted above). The reader is left to accept that all 3rd Models after #9548 carry Olympic barrels. (I have two Olympic barreled pistols (#10617 & #11112-----with DIFFERENT chambers/throats).

At this point, it might be helpful to define a couple of terms I'm going to use: Chamber & Throat. The chamber is where the cartridge case sits. The throat is where the bullet sits---and any space between the bullet and the rifling. It should be noted these are my definitions----and any similarity between mine and the actual definitions may be deemed to be coincidental. The earlier gun above has a shorter throat than the later gun---by .025" (which is to say the cartridge protrudes from the chamber .130" before being seated and .105" in the later gun). It should be noted these dimensions will vary with the design of the bullet, but the difference will remain constant. It should also be noted these are my measurements, and any you might make are yours----and may differ----I did the best I could with the tools at hand. Jinks explains these differences thus: There were enough complaints about the difficulty of seating the cartridge in the early guns that they lengthened the throat a bit. The result was/is it's still difficult to seat the cartridge---just not as difficult. As an aside, the shooters of the day used "pushers" to seat the cartridge-----a piece of wood fashioned to suit the user---and saved wear and tear on their thumb. As another aside, it has been noted one may seat the cartridge simply by closing the gun. It has been demonstrated this procedure will produce one or both of the following results: The cartridge may not fire on the first strike---but will on the second. The accuracy will suffer due to inconsistent ignition even if the gun fires with the first strike---accuracy from a machine rest. It should be noted the Olympic barrels were designed to be used by shooters who could shoot better than their guns. They were bought by many other shooters who thought they could shoot better than their guns. I suspect it was this latter group who voiced the complaints about how difficult it was to load the gun.

To add to the confusion, there are Olympic barrels on guns outside the serial range noted above----provided on special order. There are also Olympic barrels found on 1st and 2nd Models---at least in Roy's collection.

My own incomplete, amateur research efforts indicate most (by a WIDE margin) Olympic barreled 3rd Models were shipped starting in 1920 to the end of production (1923)/remaining inventory (whenever).

It's worthy of note that Harry Pope's barrels/liners almost invariably had "Olympic Chambers" (short throats). I suspect the same was true of barrels/liners produced by his contemporaries.

Finally, I tested the accuracy of both of the Olympic barreled guns and a standard gun in my collection---as best I could (which is to say I didn't have a machine rest). 50 rounds were fired from each gun. Both Olympic models produced all X ring at 25 yards. The standard gun produced all ten ring at 25 yards (the width of the X ring, with some vertical stringing). (It's entirely possible the shooter may bear some responsibility for the vertical stringing. The standard gun was tested last---and the shooter had had about all the fun he could stand---and he was old---and tired.)

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 06-22-2017, 02:52 AM
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Wink WHY??!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by SWWheelGun View Post
Questions for people who have such models and shoot them:

Did you shot high velocity 22 LR? How about Copper plated?

I did not shoot mine yet. I expect (hope) it will work fine with CCI Standard Velocity 40 gr. which are lead. But it would be super cool to also work with high velocity plated bullets. Is there a risk to damage the gun? Obviously I do not want to risk.
I think (but do not know) you can shoot any .22 Long Rifle cartridge made in complete safety-----without risking any damage/excessive wear to the gun. I would not hesitate to do so------if---IF I could think of a good reason TO DO so. I have been shooting (target) handguns of all sorts for many years. I have yet to find one/any that performed as well with high velocity loads as they do with target/reduced power loads----including some (not really target) guns----one in particular----a looooooooooooong time ago.

It was a Ruger Blackhawk---.44 Magnum. I was poor---too poor for a S&W at the time----but I HAD to have a .44 Magnum----the new kid on the block!! So there I am---seated at my favorite tree---back against the tree---knees drawn up, with my shiny new Ruger in both hands---resting on my knees. This is a painfully long story-----the pain coming from a wound on top of my head, produced by the front sight of my shiny new Ruger---after the first shot---and only shot of factory .44 Magnum ammunition I've ever fired. The end of the story goes like this: I went home, pulled 49 bullets out of 49 cases, and set out to build a civilized load for my shiny new Ruger----having QUICKLY decided ANYBODY who shot full power .44 Magnum loads was NUTS!! (And to all the naysayers, I say there are different strokes for different folks.) I ended up with 18.5 grains of 2400 behind a 205 grain Thompson Gas Check SWC. That load out of that Ruger (and an 8 3/8" S&W that followed soon thereafter---I wasn't THAT poor.) went into 5" at 100 yards ALL DAY LONG----from that same tree. I later learned my .44 Magnum load was considered a hot load--------for a .44 Special. I didn't care----still don't.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 06-22-2017, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SWWheelGun View Post
Questions for people who have such models and shoot them:

Did you shot high velocity 22 LR? How about Copper plated?

I did not shoot mine yet. I expect (hope) it will work fine with CCI Standard Velocity 40 gr. which are lead. But it would be super cool to also work with high velocity plated bullets. Is there a risk to damage the gun? Obviously I do not want to risk.

I stick to the standard velocity lead .22 LR, with or without the Olympic barrel. With the Olympic barrel it's sometimes a chore to seat the bullet into the rifling with the lead projectile as it is but cannot reason that standard velocity copper jacketed could hurt it.

I never ventured to try anything but the standard velocity .22LR simply because of the age and value. That goes for my 1891s right through to the Straightline (only fired it once) and even my pre-war K-22s.

I have one old 1949 ship date K22 that I and all my children and my grandson have put through it any type of .22 LR ammo including the higher power with no ill effects after 40+ years.

In my 41s and 46s only Standard Velocity for reliable function.

Don't listen to those who recommend you never clean a .22 LR barrel. I always clean my .22 LR barrels. Usually after 50 rounds a brass brush with Rem-oil (or equivalent) followed a few patches.
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Old 06-22-2017, 11:47 PM
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In the early 1950s, I shot on a college pistol team with a guy who had a Perfected, I don't remember which model. He didn't use it for competition; he had a Colt Officer's Model Match for that. We shot the Perfected some on the range. He said it had long headspace; it had been stretched somehow, probably by high speed 22 loads. You had to make sure the base of the cartridge was back against the frame. If the round were fully chambered, and fired, the base of the cartridge would be blown back and often stretched beyond the point of failure and the base of the cartridge would blow out. I think I stilll have one of those blown cases somewhere. It was probably due to shooting high speed loads in an old gun. If you look at the locking arrangements of the Perfeced, the metal-to-metal area is pretty small, and it could easily stretch. I certainly wouldn't shoot high speeed 22s in one.
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Old 07-15-2019, 03:28 PM
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BTT for fresh eyes. This was such a good read the first time around...
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Old 07-16-2019, 09:11 AM
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Default 2nd Model Barrels

S&W did run out of a few of the 1st Model of 91 barrels, at least in nickel 8 inch & blued 6 inch. I own a 2nd model [lettered] all matching number in nickel with an 8 inch barrel with a single line address, I also know of another guy who has one the same as mine & serial number 3201, mine is 3202 & shipped about one yr. earlier than his, & to a different company. I also know a Forum member who recently sold his 6 inch blued 2nd model with the single line address. I would assume that single line address barreled 2nd models are scarce & probably no one will ever know how many were made for what I would assume were special order? Mine is shown above my 8 inch 1st model which is blued.
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Old 07-19-2019, 08:20 PM
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My single shot:
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:00 PM
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John,
An excellent essay!
Anyone interested in target pistols of this era should consider reading
-Die Scheibenpistole (yes, it's 100% German) by Bruno Brukner and Otto Halfmann.
- Alte Scheibenwaffen vol. 3 by Jesse Thompson, et al (in English!)

There is considerable information on the European target pistols such as by Üdo Anschutz, Stotzer, Widmer, and Rudolf Hämmerli, plus dozens more.
Objectively speaking, the S&W Perfected was stuck between a rock and a hard place. It offered neither the firepower of a revolver nor the refined set "hair" trigger, micrometer sights, & fitted grip of a European free pistol. In fact, Julian Hatcher adresses this in some detail in his Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers.

Nonetheless, the S&W is a remarkable arm. If one was strongly inclined towards the grip shape and trigger, it would likely still serve well in a slow fire match.
I would love to machine rest one at 50 yds with some Lapua Pistol King ammo!
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
This from Roy Jinks--followed by a remark to the effect there's a lot more (research) to be done: "This model after serial number 9548 was available with a special barrel which is called the Olympic barrel. This barrel is designed in such a manner that the bullet must be forced into the rifling. The purpose of the Olympic barrel was to eliminate any misalignment that the bullet would have before engaging the rifling. This type of barrel improved the accuracy slightly over our standard barrel. These barrels were originally designed for the United States Olympic Team of 1908. The total production (regular production, I reckon) of Olympic barrels is 2,093 units. They were also supplied on special request and are found throughout the production series as replacement barrels."
I wonder if the purchaser of this one ever figured out that the serial number of 6666 is outside the range of Olympic barreled guns, these being after 9548?

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Old 07-20-2019, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mrcvs View Post
I wonder if the purchaser of this one ever figured out that the serial number of 6666 is outside the range of Olympic barreled guns, these being after 9548?

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I reckon it's pretty much a lead pipe cinch notice has been taken #6666 is outside the range of those after 9548. But before we make anything of that, there are other facts of merit to be considered----all of which might be considered appropriate responses to the question "So what?"

Here's some of them------not necessarily in order of importance:

Roy's first conclusion following his discovery of what we might call the 9548 story-----or at least the first chapters was that there were no Olympic Models made AFTER 9548.

Concurrent with that thought was this one: There's a lot more work, investigation to be done---or words to that effect. It's similarly noteworthy he said the same thing after he changed his mind and decided most ALL of them were made AFTER 9548. And it's not that he can't make up his mind, it's that he's a historian doing his thing----digging up heretofore little or unknown facts and trying to make an ACCURATE account of what happened---and when.

Another thing worth remembering is he noted there were Olympic Models made outside THE period on special order---and never mind what THE period was. (Roy didn't say that last part---I did.)

Another thing he said, and this is my favorite---no matter what you're trying to explain, "They (S&W) would do anything anybody would pay them to do." (I'll never forget the first time he told me that. I'd asked him if they ever made a 3rd Model Single Shot in .22 Short----and he came back with that. After I'd had time to think about that----and the fact neither he nor anybody else knows, or will ever know what they did or didn't do at any given time concerning any given thing, I decided that was a good answer. It wasn't the answer I wanted, but it was the only valid one I was going to get.

And like that-------------

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:08 AM
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Thank you, Ralph.

So it seems to me that the majority of Olympic barrels occur after serial number 9548, but there can be exceptions. This seems like very dangerous territory to me. You are allowing a subjective measurement, undocumented, to determine if one of these pistols should carry a hefty premium. A little crud in the barrel and it might seem that it was difficult to insert a round. It's like magic--a dirty barrel warrants a premium!

If you think this is more cut and dry than it seems, you wouldn't believe the number of times I cannot get a straight answer over the phone or by e-mail whether or not a Triple Lock chambered in .455 Webley has been opened up to .45 Colt--and, in this case, a revolver bored out would allow for a .45 Colt round to be easily inserted and one remaining in .455 Webley would cause the .45 Colt round to stick out by a third.

I was reading some posts with regards to these pistols and I, specifically, commented that I "thought" I had seen a letter that Roy wrote that stated a certain pistol contained an Olympic chambered barrel. I think the vast majority do not. I'm wondering, assuming my memory was even correct at that time, if that may have been included in that specific letter as it was annotated on the letter request form by the owner at the time a factory letter was requested?
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Old 07-21-2019, 10:55 AM
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Yes, the majority of Olympic Models occur in the 3rd Model series after #9548-------and there are exceptions.

There's nothing subjective nor undocumented about the measurement of the chamber/throat of an Olympic Model. I typically say an unseated cartridge protrudes .130" from an early barrel, .105" from a later barrel. My actual measurements were .132" and .105". I decided .132" was an erroneous measurement---only because a difference of .027" seemed highly unlikely compared to .025". And that said, any such measurement is going to vary dependent upon the configuration of the nose of the bullet----the difference will remain constant.

As to the difference in effort required to seat a cartridge in an Olympic barrel vs. a dirty barrel, let's just say I applaud your imagination. The shooters of Olympic Models routinely used "pushers" (wooden tools) to seat the cartridge so as to avoid wear and tear on their thumbs. This from Joe Miller (USRA Historian).

There was a significant premium attached to an Olympic Model back in the good old days when they were thought to be scarce. That pretty much evaporated when it was discovered almost a third of them were thought to be Olympics.

And if a particular unit was noted as an Olympic Model in a letter, it's because Roy had prior knowledge about that particular item. There are no known production records to tell the tale, and there's no way to tell the difference sitting and staring at the gun in your hands----only by attempting to seat a cartridge.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Yes, the majority of Olympic Models occur in the 3rd Model series after #9548-------and there are exceptions.

There's nothing subjective nor undocumented about the measurement of the chamber/throat of an Olympic Model. I typically say an unseated cartridge protrudes .130" from an early barrel, .105" from a later barrel. My actual measurements were .132" and .105". I decided .132" was an erroneous measurement---only because a difference of .027" seemed highly unlikely compared to .025". And that said, any such measurement is going to vary dependent upon the configuration of the nose of the bullet----the difference will remain constant.

As to the difference in effort required to seat a cartridge in an Olympic barrel vs. a dirty barrel, let's just say I applaud your imagination. The shooters of Olympic Models routinely used "pushers" (wooden tools) to seat the cartridge so as to avoid wear and tear on their thumbs. This from Joe Miller (USRA Historian).

There was a significant premium attached to an Olympic Model back in the good old days when they were thought to be scarce. That pretty much evaporated when it was discovered almost a third of them were thought to be Olympics.

And if a particular unit was noted as an Olympic Model in a letter, it's because Roy had prior knowledge about that particular item. There are no known production records to tell the tale, and there's no way to tell the difference sitting and staring at the gun in your hands----only by attempting to seat a cartridge.

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph, for the record I can attest to:

716x is NOT a Olympic barrel. Side note: this is a very interesting SS but discussion for another day, it has King sights, a club number 0257 barrel with 2 notches machined on the bottom side of the barrel. One notch is 1" from crown, the other apx. 1.5" forward of the pivot joint. Perhaps for a scope mount or weights ? Has the original matching latch and Roper stocks. I don't see any Pope markings is which I had hoped for when I purchased it a few decades ago. The front sight it a back-cut USRA type, prominently stamped "King", the rear sight is a outlined square notch. Also, the Ropers ... in the extension area past the frame is meticulously hollowed out. Seems as though it may have had a weight or weights inside the stocks. Shows evidence of "something" having been in that hollowed area. Hammer seems to be a rather short throw, especially in Double action.

739x is NOT a Olympic barrel

842x is NOT a Olympic barrel.

1002x "is" a Olympic barrel

1107x "is" a Olympic barrel.

Hope this brings some clarity. Sal Raimondi, Sr.
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