Is This An Insanely Great Price For This 2nd Model Russian? More Pics!

Wyatt Burp · #1 02-20-2013, 09:00 PM

Even though it's antique the seller isn't too hot on shipping. But he says the gun works perfectly and shoots great even though he hasn't shot it in years. $1500 or best offer. Other pics show no sign whatsoever of a refinish. I've owned a 3rd model but recall these were harder to find. Your thoughts on what it's worth considering finish is orig. and action is as good as the seller says?

mmaher94087 · #2 02-20-2013, 10:45 PM

Wyatt,
I can't tell; are the hammer and trigger and the guard case-colored? They appear blue on my monitor. Do the numbers match? I'm thinking it is a third model frame that has a (?) second model barrel. Something doesn't add up to me. It is nice looking but I feel something is amiss. Mike #283

glowe · #3 02-20-2013, 11:07 PM

I agree with Mike, something is not right about the gun. I see a replaced latch that is not right for the Old Model Russian. It should have latch like a 2nd Model American, but llooks like a 44 DA latch.

Part of the serial number should be found on the rear of the cylinder and on the barrel frame behind the latch. I think the latch should also be marked.

I would be careful with this one.

Wyatt Burp · #4 02-21-2013, 10:06 AM

thanks guys. The latch does look different than the one I'm looking at in Mike Venturino's book. The frame does not have that prominent screw on top of the frame like the original 3rd Model I once owned. The front sight is pinned in, not part of the barrel as my 3rd Model as I recall. Here's a closeup of the gun so you can check out the details and finish on hammer and trigger. And the barrel markings.

equine · #5 02-21-2013, 01:55 PM

Hi,
You are correct the barrel is off a OOM Russian. The rest of the gun looks ok at a quick glance. The 3rd russian should have had the cylinder stop screw on the top rib.
That being said I would love to have the barrel of of this one as I am rebuilding some OOM's and have only cut off barrels or 3rd russian barrels at present. Bottom line I would go with BO unless you are wanting it for parts. I looks like it could be a shooter but not a collector.
KR

Wyatt Burp · #6 02-21-2013, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by equine

Hi,
You are correct the barrel is off a OOM Russian. The rest of the gun looks ok at a quick glance. The 3rd russian should have had the cylinder stop screw on the top rib.
That being said I would love to have the barrel of of this one as I am rebuilding some OOM's and have only cut off barrels or 3rd russian barrels at present. Bottom line I would go with BO unless you are wanting it for parts. I looks like it could be a shooter but not a collector.
KR

By "OOM" are you referring to the 1st Russian that looked like an American but was in .44 Russian caliber? I had such a gun once and sold it to Jim Supica who I'm pretty sure advertised it as an American with a .44 Russian cylinder in it now. But if this gun's barrel is off one of those, wouldn't it be 8" rather than the 7" this one appears to be? And BTW. It sounds like you have a pretty interesting work bench if you have a bunch of these guns and various parts.

glowe · #7 02-21-2013, 03:31 PM

The designation OOM Russian refers to the American frame and barrel offered in 44 Russian caliber. Your barrel looks to be an Old Model Russian, or 2nd Model. If your barrel is not cut, it can not be an OOM. The barrel length for the 2nd Model should be 7", while the barrel stamping should be centered.

I think the close-ups show everything in order except for the barrel latch. Of course we can not tell if anything was done internally. The frame has the proper ratchet pawl for the 2nd Model as well.

The only other area of concern is the gap at the rear of the cylinder and the shape of the flutes. For some reason, the flutes do not look right and the gap seems too big, but that might just be the picture. Make sure the numbers stamped on the back of the cylinder match the frame.

equine · #8 02-21-2013, 11:07 PM

First let me say sorry for haveing a brain fart. Golwe is correct I let my fingers out run my eyes on this one. For some reason I got it in my head I was looking at a 3rd model and completly skipped over the pawl evan though I looked right at it. Second that being said I withdraw what I said about the price. I just got back from RIA auction this weekend and a gun simmilar to that brought a lot more. This looks like a good honest 2nd Russian and they are getting hard to come by for that price.
KR

jleiper · #9 03-03-2013, 12:31 PM

First, it is definitely a second (OM) barrel. The gas collar on the second model is visibly different than the one found on the first models (OOM). The barrel on a second model commercial could be anywhere from 5 1/2 - 8 inches. The standard was 7" but it was available in 5 1/2, 6, 6 1/2, 7 and 8 inches. Commercial OOM barrels were from 5 - 8 inches with 8 inches being standard.
I agree that the barrel latch is off of a later model.
Joe

Modified · #10 03-12-2013, 06:29 PM

I believe you guys are discussing a gun that I just purchased, but has not arrived yet. I wanted a shooter for around this price, I ended up talking him down to $1300. He sent me a couple additional pictures of it (they are fairly good, you can click on them to get large versions):

On one hand I am hoping I didn't get ripped off, always a bit of a risk when buying a gun over the internet. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure even if there are more replacement parts on it then just the barrel latch I will still be happy with it at this price.

Anyway, when I get it I can post more pictures of it if you guys are interested. I've become pretty good at getting detailed shots, so if there are any particular pieces of the gun you are interested in I can certainly get pictures of them.

I hope to have the gun in hand next week at the latest.

glowe · #11 03-13-2013, 12:29 PM

No, I don't think you got ripped off. Looking closely at the revolver, I still think the left stock is a handmade replacement and the right has been cleaned up and oiled, plus the latch is definately from a 44 DA. Overall, there is still bluing in the protected areas and the finish looks original. I don't think you can find an Old Model 3 Russian that is not totally beat up or totally refinished for under $1000 anymore.

Modified · #12 03-18-2013, 06:55 PM

It arrived. I am immensely pleased with it. The lockup and timing are perfect, I expect it is going to be enormously fun to shoot. I couldn't be happier with it really.

The barrel and cylinder are from one gun, the frame from another, and the latch from a later model. Other then the latch it's all 1870s vintage, the latch itself is probably also antique, but it is from a .44 Double Action.

Anything else I should get pictures of for you guys?

Edit: Oh yeah, you should be able to get very large versions of the pictures by clicking on them to go to the imgur page, then clicking on the image again.

The SH in a diamond is a stamp the distributor, Schuyler & Hartley, put on there from what I read in the standard catalog, kind of neat.

Bore shots are always rough, but I got something here. Anyway, it has a super nice bore.

When I took the stocks off things became interesting. This number look familiar?

The stocks are also original.

So, after taking the stocks off I am thinking that maybe this gun went back to S&W? The latch is certainly wrong, but a factory letter might tell me if S&W put it on there, which I would imagine could possibly have happened if it were worked on years after they were out of replacement parts?

I am really going to have to get around to sending off for a letter on this one I guess.

Old TexMex · #13 03-18-2013, 07:18 PM

That is very pretty. Really is. They sure built some beautiful handguns.

glowe · #14 03-18-2013, 07:39 PM

Much better pictures this time around. You have an interesting Model 3, with 2 serial numbers on the frame. That might indicate a factory return, but it is unusual that the original serial number on the frame are still there. I also see by the SH marking that your gun was sold to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham, a large S&W dealer in New York.

The stocks are clearly original to the frame and it looks like the gun was carried more than it was shot. A factory letter will not help you much with a factory return, since those records are not readily available, but rather it will show when the gun was shipped and in what configuration as it left the factory. Make sure you let Roy know about the 2 serial numbers and maybe he can find information on both.

Mike McLellan · #15 03-18-2013, 07:44 PM

What a beautiful work of art. That's gonna be fun to shoot. I'm jealous.

Modified · #16 03-18-2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Much better pictures this time around. You have an interesting Model 3, with 2 serial numbers on the frame. That might indicate a factory return, but it is unusual that the original serial number on the frame are still there. I also see by the SH marking that your gun was sold to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham, a large S&W dealer in New York.

The stocks are clearly original to the frame and it looks like the gun was carried more than it was shot. A factory letter will not help you much with a factory return, since those records are not readily available, but rather it will show when the gun was shipped and in what configuration as it left the factory. Make sure you let Roy know about the 2 serial numbers and maybe he can find information on both.

Thanks for the further information. I was pretty happy to find that second serial on the frame, I'm terribly curious to see what Roy makes of it.

I've been wondering, is it possible that Roy would run both S/Ns separately? My initial reaction to this gun was that someone who wanted a good shooter had taken 2 good guns and made one, but that S/N on the frame sort of threw me.