New model 3 question

[randall k]

Got the letter on my new model 3. It was made aug 1896,so can this gun be shipped directly to its new owner if I sell it? Can it be shipped USPS as it is a antique? Thanks ! Randall

[TeddyRuxpin]

Randall, ever since the attack on 9/11/2001, the United States has banned all firearms from being shipped to buyers. You can only ship it to a gun shop where that buyer is and have him or her pick it up there. I think you can ship it in seperate peices, but it will be likely to get opened and confiscated.

[DWalt]

This is a tough question to answer, as U. S. postal regulations on shipping antique handguns are somewhat ambiguous. Don't expect your local post office clerk to be able to help you. Most of them do not know or understand their own regulations. As it is legally an antique, it is not considered to be a "Firearm" in most jurisdictions. You should be able to use FedEx or UPS.

[glowe]

If you do not have an ffl (and maybe a C&R) license, don't try it. To make things tougher, current antique definition at the Post Office is only single shot muzzle loading firearms according to the references below. Some extracts from the USPS are below, but as DWalt states, still quite confusing.

12.1.3 Authorized Persons

Subject to 12.1.4, handguns may be mailed by a licensed manufacturer of firearms, a licensed dealer of firearms, a licensed importer of firearms, or an authorized agent of the federal government or the government of a state, territory, or district.

12.1.5 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufac­turers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade ship­ments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

12.1.2 Handguns

Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in 12.1.3 and 12.1.5 after the filing of an affi­davit or statement required by 12.1.4 and 12.1.6, and are subject to the following:

a. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b, and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 12.1.1g.

b. Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 12.1.1b that are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be cu­rios or relics of museum interest may be accepted for mailing without regard to 12.1.3 through 12.1.6.

c. Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearm under 12.1.1a that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable; but must include adult signa­ture service under 503.8.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.

d. Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers, or other parts or components reg­ulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.


Definition: Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shot­gun/pistol that is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and that cannot use fixed am­munition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by re­placing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combina­tion thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica

[CaptainMorgan]

Originally Posted by TeddyRuxpin

Randall, ever since the attack on 9/11/2001, the United States has banned all firearms from being shipped to buyers. You can only ship it to a gun shop where that buyer is and have him or her pick it up there. I think you can ship it in seperate peices, but it will be likely to get opened and confiscated.

You can quite legally ship any antique long gun to anyone legally able to own it through the USPS. You can also ship any gun (long gun at least, not sure about handgun) you own to yourself. (E.g. If you were going on a hunting trip or moving.)

And, of course you can ship any long gun to any dealer FFL or gunsmith FFL, and any C&R long gun to any C&R FFL through the USPS.

[glowe]

Originally Posted by CaptainMorgan

You can quite legally ship any antique long gun to anyone legally able to own it through the USPS. You can also ship any gun (long gun at least, not sure about handgun) you own to yourself. (E.g. If you were going on a hunting trip or moving.)

And, of course you can ship any long gun to any dealer FFL or gunsmith FFL, and any C&R long gun to any C&R FFL through the USPS.

The OP is trying to ship a handgun and not a long gun, so what do you think about USPS and handguns? We have had many discussions on this issue over the years, but often get conflicting comments. The USPS often uses the term "Licensed" and a C&R is licensed, but there is no definition of what that means.

Also, antique firearms need to be muzzleloaders according to USPS regulations, regardless of whether a long gun or handgun??

Definition: Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shot­gun/pistol that is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute and that cannot use fixed am­munition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm that is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by re­placing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combina­tion thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof.

I think those who drafted the regulations know nothing about firearms!

[deadin]

I think those who drafted the regulations know nothing about firearms!

Below are two excerpts from official USPS Publications. The first is from the Postal “Bible” aka Domestic Mailing Manual and the other is from Publication 52. Note the difference in the definitions about replicas between the two. The phrase “any replica thereof, if such replica:”in the DMM has been replaced with “a replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:”
The deletion of “if such replica” puts a whole new meaning on the mailability of non-replica antique firearms, and adds true antiques into the same category. The DMM definition allows the mailing of true antiques regardless of chambering. The Pub 52 disallows it.
However the Introduction of Pub 52 states “The primary rules that apply to the mailing of hazardous materials, restricted matter, and perishable matter and that have precedence over all other postal information are found in DMM 601.8–11.”, so it sounds to me that the DMM trumps Pub 52.

I think I will go have a talk with my Postmaster tomorrow……

DMM601.12.1.1.h
Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica:
1. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
2. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

USPS Publication 52
43 Firearms
431 Definitions
431.3 Antique Firearm

An antique firearm (including one with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) is any firearm manufactured in or before 1898, or a replica of such a firearm, that meets either of the following conditions:
a. It is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition.
b. It uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and that is not readily available through commercial trade channels.

In addition, I would like to have an official definition of just what is considered the difference between "ordinary channels of commercial trade" and just "commercial trade channels". Once again, an innocent seeming change that could have far reaching implications. There are any number of"custom" sources for obsolete ammo that wouldn't be considered "ordinary" but are "commercial".

[opoefc]

I've shipped, and received, many a pre-1899 hand gun through the USPS system over the years, and never had a problem with either domestic destinations or over seas. ( A NM #3 of 1896 vintage is definitely an antique, by age definition as well as by using obsolete black powder ammo. ) I used Registered Mail and insured the guns for it's fair market value. Having said that, lately the USPS rates are exceeding the cost of shipping the same package via FedEx or UPS, so I'll probably not be using USPS in the future. Ed.