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Old 05-03-2013, 04:23 AM
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Default New Model No. 3 Australian Issue - Ser. 13196

Hi all,

I have in my collection a .44 Russian, Model 3. It is serial 13196. It is notched for a shoulder stock and is in nickel. I understand it was one of about 310 that came to Australia under a contract to the South Australian Colonial Police back in 1882. They were sent with shoulder stocks, holster and stock scabbard. They were known as "revolver carbines" here in Australia

I understand there were 250 in the first shipment and 60 in the second.

I don't really know much more about them ... hoping you guys will be able to enlighten me

Any information regarding the contracts, serials - anything really would be a big help

Below is a pic.. she is not all shiny and new but very tight and (I think) beautiful

Mike

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Last edited by S&W_aussie; 05-04-2013 at 06:56 PM. Reason: New information
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:12 AM
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Wish I could help, but can't. Nice piece of history you've got there.
Will you have a shoulder-stock fabricated, for display purposes?
Thanks for sharing.
TACC1
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TACC1 View Post
Wish I could help, but can't. Nice piece of history you've got there.
Will you have a shoulder-stock fabricated, for display purposes?
Thanks for sharing.
TACC1
Hey TACC1

I actually know of a shoulder stock about to come up at auction (along with original reloading gear and another complete gun!) ... its expected to go to $1000+

By the way the other gun is estimated at about $5000+ as well lol

If I can get an original stock under a grand I probably will

Cheers

Mike
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:16 AM
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Here's wishing you luck!
TACC1
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:52 PM
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Mike,
I will try to answer some of your questions.
The first shipment of 250, New Model No. 3's, with a 7" barrel & shoulder stocks were shipped from the factory in twelve tin-lined wood crates holding twenty guns each & one crate containing 10, to M.W. Robinson for the Australian Government on December 14, 1881. They were received by SA in March 1882.
You mentioned the serial number on yours is 131xx. If I had the entire serial number it would be easier to find it in the shipping records for you.
Crates containing 20 each were numbered 1948 - 1959 & the crate containing 10 was 1962.
Crates containing revolvers beginning with 131xx:
Crate 1950: 13181, 13182, 13190, 13191, 13192, 13194 (which I own), 13198 & 13199.
Crate 1958: 13100
Crate 1962: 13183, 13185 & 13188
After being received by the Australian Government, the revolver and stock received their mark of ownership being stamped with the "broad arrow". Shortly after delivery, the government contracted for the production of leather holsters. According to the author of this information, Major C. W. Pate, These holsters were stamped with the broad arrow and what appears to be a separate numbering series. The holsters were not from S&W.
Other revolvers with 131xx numbers shipped at a later date are:
13184 shipped 11/19/87, shipping destination of SA or WA unknown .
13153, 131158, 131179 shipped 09/22/83 to WA.
13183 shipped 12/14/81 to SA.
13195 shipped 12/04/83 to WA.
In addition to the original 250, 7" shouldered stocked revolvers ordered, there were 30, 6-1/2" barrel, not cut for shoulder stock ordered. Then there were an addition of 33, 7" revolvers, ordered at a later date. This would make a total of 313 revolvers sent.
I hope this answers a few questions for you.
Dave
Attached are photos of mine, revolver serial number 13194 shipped in crate #1950 and shoulder stock no. 12426 shipped in crate #1948.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:42 PM
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Mike, If you don't already have it, get a copy of Max Slee's book, "Service Arms of the South Australian Police" published in Australia in 1988. It contains a lot of info. on the S&W shipments, etc. I have serial number 23306, nickel with 6 1/2 in. barrel, and shoulder stock, pictured in Neal & Jinks book, "S&W 1857-1945" page 186. It was shipped Sept. 3, 1886, to McLean Bros. & Rigg, Sydney, Aus., as part of a 60 gun shipment, most of which eventually wound up with the Western Australian Police . According to Roy Jinks's notes, at least one, maybe more, of the 1882 shipments mentioned above, were lost at sea enroute to Australia. Somewhere I believe I have a list of the serial numbers of those lost guns. Ed.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:59 PM
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In my previous post it was stated that "these holsters were stamped with the broad arrow and what appears to be a separate numbering series".
I would like to pose a question. Is it possible they might in someway, be numbered to the revolvers and stocks, or is this just a coincidence?

My revolver, serial no. 13194 was purchased many years ago, with the holster which is marked 194 with the broad arrow (see attached photo 1), the last 3 digits of the revolver. No other revolver in the shipping records of the 250 revolvers ended with 194.

The shoulder stock no. 14126 and holster or pouch, I purchased in 2001, (see photos 2 & 3) is numbered 26 with the broad arrow. There were only two revolvers in the 250 revolvers shipped ending in 26, they were 14126 & 12226. This stock pouch has two slots for the leather straps.

I have another stock pouch only, that I purchased in 2009 (see photos 4 & 5), that is marked with the numbers 194 and the broad arrow, The same as the revolver holster. This pouch only has one slot for a leather strap.

The revolver with serial number 13194, revolver holster marked 194 & the stock pouch marked 194 seems like more than a coincidence to me.

Now I am in search for the shoulder stock with serial number 13194.
Dave
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:28 PM
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Wow!

Thanks for all the info!!! And thanks to Masterpiece for the PM.

The full serial on my gun is 13196! .. so it seems it fits right into the gap haha.

Think its time for a letter Mr Jinks!

Cheers

Mike
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:18 PM
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I think that they have an original stock for that for sale at my LGS. They are Shore Galleries if you are interested. 847-676-2900
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:20 PM
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As an after-thought I figured that I should confirm that they still have the stock. I was told by the owner that it just recently sold. Sorry if I got anyone's hopes up.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:03 PM
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Hi again everyone,

Seriously I am floored by the wealth of information here and the generosity of the members to take the time to share it both here and in PMs/email. Thanks for it all!

The other NM3 for sale is at auction TODAY in Melbourne Australia at Australian Arms Auctions. It is serial 12458 and stock number 12432. There is also the following "ORIGINAL BOX OF LOADING TOOLS FOR S&W NO.3 REVOLVER: consisting of wooden mallet, bullet mould, 2 pc brass sizing tool, 2 pc steel sizing tool, brass dipper, wood primer punch, anvil & base & 2 instruction sheets; g. cond box."

There is one other also at the same auction - a NM 3 serial 13221

And finally this - sort of related serial number 123 "SCARCE, CASED SMITH & WESSON 320 REVOLVING RIFLE: 320 Rev R; 6 shot; 457mm; 18” rnd barrel with 2 line address & integral rib; vg shiny bore with just a few lt marks; globe front sight with flip over dbl rear sight; 70% orig blue finish to metal, the balance turning plum; case hardening colour to hammer; red & black gutta percha forend with S&W monogram; chequered brown & black gutta percha grips with S&W monogram; butt cut for shoulder stock assembly; shoulder stock with 80% blue finish to metal; chequered gutta percha butt plate with S&W monogram; butt has no s/n; exc wo & cond. In orig cardboard case with brass corners, handle & broken straps; the case needs repair as it’s done its job protecting its contents; cleaning rod present but no tang peep sight"

Pics of all this below

Mike

Serial 12458

Serial 12432

Tools

Revolving Rifle 123
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:47 PM
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Wonderful information from everybody. Mike, I hope you can connect with a shoulder stock that you want.

Thank you for the info about the 320 Revolving Rifle. I keep track of known specimens and did not yet know that number 123 (out of a reported 977 made) had survived. Interesting that it ended up in Australia. Several did, but others were said to have been lost in a shipwreck.

ADDED: Oops, sorry. I had in fact recently heard about RR 123, but just hadn't yet added it to my master catalog. Still, I understand the gun has only recently surfaced, so its existence has not been known long to collectors.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
Wonderful information from everybody. Mike, I hope you can connect with a shoulder stock that you want.

Thank you for the info about the 320 Revolving Rifle. I keep track of known specimens and did not yet know that number 123 (out of a reported 977 made) had survived. Interesting that it ended up in Australia. Several did, but others were said to have been lost in a shipwreck.
I may know of another one here in Australia.. think I saw it yesterday but was too interested in the new 1937 Brazilian I was buying haha.

Ill check for you

Cheers

Mike
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S&W_aussie View Post
The other NM3 for sale is at auction TODAY in Melbourne Australia at Australian Arms Auctions. It is serial 12458 and stock number 12432.

There is one other also at the same auction - a NM 3 serial 13221
Mike,
Here's some info about 12458 & 12432!!

Serial 12458 was in Original Shipment of 250 shipped Dec.14.1881

Serial 12432 was also in the Original Shipment of 250 shipped Dec.14.1881

The other Revolver, Serial No.'d 13221, is also very interesting & could very well have been shipped to the West Australian Police as suggested in the Auction, but without further research or documentation it's almost impossible to confirm at the present as it's an unknown much like yours...definitely worth going after if you can buy it right!!
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:54 AM
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I've just arrived home from the Saturday evening session (I left after the S&W items came up). Revolver #12458 and holster didn't attract a bid, the stock and scabbard sold at under $1000, I think it was $950, to an absentee bidder, so Mike if that was you, congratulations. I was the underbidder on the loading tools and they sold for $950 to a friend of mine, who thinks the anvil in the set may be incorrect.

The revolving rifle is in tomorrows session.

Prices are in Aus dollars (near enough to the $US) and don't include buyers premium of 16.5%.

Frank S.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankynohankypanky View Post
I've just arrived home from the Saturday evening session (I left after the S&W items came up). Revolver #12458 and holster didn't attract a bid, the stock and scabbard sold at under $1000, I think it was $950, to an absentee bidder, so Mike if that was you, congratulations. I was the underbidder on the loading tools and they sold for $950 to a friend of mine, who thinks the anvil in the set may be incorrect.

The revolving rifle is in tomorrows session.

Prices are in Aus dollars (near enough to the $US) and don't include buyers premium of 16.5%.

Frank S.
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Thanks Frank!

Nah it wasn't me ... oh well...

How was the rest of the session? Were there many lots passed in? I was also interested in seeing how the Model 41-1 went (I have one lol)

Mike
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:38 AM
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G’day
I was at the auction today; with the 320 the auctioneer started at $20,000, down to $10000 and did not get a bid. I tell you what, I was tempted but how to explain that to the wife! For the next few lots I kept thinking should have I or not. Anyway he was probably only trying to kick the bidding off.

Mike, the 41-1 was not a 41-1, I could tell that from the pictures, seeing in person was doubly sure, bought it anyway for $575 with commission. Not bad for a great old 41 with short conversion kit. I have 2 41-1 and always looking for #3
There was a lot of good stuff passed in, of the 33 S&W lots the 320 was the only one passed in. I could not believe the prices the Model 1, 1 ˝s & 2 reached, I stayed all day mostly for them and didn’t place a bid. Sorry I didn’t record the hammer price, they’ll list the prices in a few weeks.

Cheers.
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Old 05-05-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
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G’day
I was at the auction today; with the 320 the auctioneer started at $20,000, down to $10000 and did not get a bid. I tell you what, I was tempted but how to explain that to the wife! For the next few lots I kept thinking should have I or not. Anyway he was probably only trying to kick the bidding off.

Mike, the 41-1 was not a 41-1, I could tell that from the pictures, seeing in person was doubly sure, bought it anyway for $575 with commission. Not bad for a great old 41 with short conversion kit. I have 2 41-1 and always looking for #3
There was a lot of good stuff passed in, of the 33 S&W lots the 320 was the only one passed in. I could not believe the prices the Model 1, 1 ˝s & 2 reached, I stayed all day mostly for them and didn’t place a bid. Sorry I didn’t record the hammer price, they’ll list the prices in a few weeks.

Cheers.
Thanks for the update!

Well done on picking up a nice long barrel 41 for a great price!

Mike
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