3rd Mod.Single Shot before its time?

Modelof1891 · #1 02-09-2013, 09:56 AM

I have a 3rd Model Single Shot .22 Target pistol that is numbered earlier than the information stated for this model. Most of the information I find states the serial number range for the 3rd Model Single Shot is 4618-11641. This one is stamped on the front strap 4241. That is 377 digits before the listed start of the 3rd model.

Another strange thing about this example is that published information states, " the barrels from the 1st and 2nd model single shots will not fit this 3rd model single shot DA frame". The barrel is number 2373 and is marked "Modelof91" on the top and is rounded at the bottom where all 3rd models are machined flat. This 8 inch barrel is a first model, or could possibly be a 2nd model barrel with these markings. The latch is numbered 3701.

The finish has been nickeled and the nickel finish is not listed as an option, only blue.
I had rather all the numbers match and the finish still be original, but this example had some different, non-conforming features, that made me bring her home.
After all, is there a chance it is the 3rd Model Single Shot .22 DA Target prototype?

[IMG]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/Modelof1891/photo_zps957ca037.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p173/Modelof1891/photo_zpscb5eb7a3.jpg[/IMG

glowe · #2 02-09-2013, 10:27 AM

Interesting find. As I follow posts on this Forum, I realize that you should never say never when it comes to S&Ws. I would think that the frame could have been a prototype, but this one begs for a factory letter. I am seeing slightly rounded edges and some nickel in pitting areas here and there on your SS, so my guess is refinish.

Also, I think the barrel was fitted with a hand file outside the factory. Looking at your pohoto of the serial number under the latch, S&W would have never left the latch frame looking like it was held against a grinding wheel.

Still, any single shot is a great find and I bet it shoots just like all the others.

H. M. Pope · #3 02-09-2013, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modelof1891

I have a 3rd Model Single Shot .22 Target pistol that is numbered earlier than the information stated for this model. Most of the information I find states the serial number range for the 3rd Model Single Shot is 4618-11641. This one is stamped on the front strap 4241. That is 377 digits before the listed start of the 3rd model.

Another strange thing about this example is that published information states, " the barrels from the 1st and 2nd model single shots will not fit this 3rd model single shot DA frame". The barrel is number 2373 and is marked "Modelof91" on the top and is rounded at the bottom where all 3rd models are machined flat. This 8 inch barrel is a first model, or could possibly be a 2nd model barrel with these markings. The latch is numbered 3701.

The finish has been nickeled and the nickel finish is not listed as an option, only blue.
I had rather all the numbers match and the finish still be original, but this example had some different, non-conforming features, that made me bring her home.
After all, is there a chance it is the 3rd Model Single Shot .22 DA Target prototype?

FWIW,
I've been told that numbers 3632, 3887, and 4428 are also 3rd Models. The lowest number that I know of that fits the "book" numbers is 4656 and is a H. M. Pope barreled 3rd Model.
H. M. Pope

rct269 · #4 02-09-2013, 08:43 PM

I tend to like your prototype idea-----------

1st/2nd barrels won't fit on 3rd frame because 3rd frame is flat---where 1st/2nd's are radiused (sp?). I wouldn't know a Perfected revolver if it bit me on the nose, but it stands to reason the revolver frame is also radiused-----because the revolver cylinder is too.(!!) Your frame is also radiused! So----------when they were first messing around with the Perfected revolver frame (with an eye towards using it for a singe shot), they snatched a frame off the line before it got cut for the hand and the bolt; and then grabbed a 1st barrel, bolted it on, and said something to the effect of "Check it out dude!!"

Now, is that the way it happened? I don't know, I wasn't there------and neither was anyone else in this audience; but it makes sense---as far as it goes.

Do one thing for me---check the length of the bottom of the barrel (where it fits in the frame) and see if it's the same as a 1st/2nd. I'm betting it's shorter. So too are 3rd barrels----and 1st/2nd barrels which have been modified to fit and function on 3rd frames.

That's all for now.

Ralph Tremaine

Modelof1891 · #5 02-11-2013, 05:52 PM

Ralph,

The bottom of the barrel measures 1 1/4 inches.

Glowe,

It has for sure been refinished in nickel over blue.

rct269 · #6 02-11-2013, 07:55 PM

And the bottom of an unmodified 1st/2nd measures 1.3----I win!! What's my prize?!!

RCT

Modelof1891 · #7 02-16-2013, 09:45 AM

rct269,
The measurement on the bottom of the barrel, with better tools, is 1 9/32's.

Since I not longer have any other third model SS, can anyone tell me if the frame is flat where the bottom of the barrel sits in closed position, or radiused like this number 4241?

Terry Wagner

22hipower · #8 02-16-2013, 01:48 PM

I have SN 6736 in blue and the profile is exactly as your first picture. Not sure what you mean by "radiused" but everything I can see on mine seems to match yours.

glowe · #9 02-16-2013, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 22hipower

I have SN 6736 in blue and the profile is exactly as your first picture. Not sure what you mean by "radiused" but everything I can see on mine seems to match yours.

The term radiused means the bottom of the barrel frame is rounded to fit the frame of the 1st model, which was also made for a Model 1891 revolver or a single shot. The radius was so the cylinder would fit the rounded hollow of the frame that was necessary to allow the cylinder to rotate. The Third Model was purpose built as a single shot only.

Your SS falls right into the sn range of the Third Model, which was made from 1909 to 1923 and with sn from 4618 to 11,642. The 2nd Model and Third Model overlapped in the same serial number range.

rct269 · #10 02-16-2013, 03:02 PM

The frame of a 3rd Model is flat.

RCT

And 9/32's or not, I still win----just not by quite as much!

Your photos show a very, or at least, a comparatively tight fit/small gap between your barrel assembly and the outer circumference of the hinge. In other words, they only shortened your barrel assembly as much as they had to----to get the barrel to fit your frame. A regular, everyday 3rd Model, by comparison, has a gap you could throw a cat through!

And finally, in the hope we will hear no more about how 1st/2nd barrels won't fit 3rd Model frames, they will fit just fine---right after you grind the radius off the bottom of the 1st/2nd barrels----AND shorten the bottom of the 1st/2nd barrels by about .060"-----which is the difference in the "length" of the frames (between the recoil shield end and the hinge end) of the respective revolvers. And needless to say (I hope!), the shortening takes place at the front of the bottom of the barrel.

And if this isn't a "prototype", it's a good imitation of one. Somewhere along the line, I got the impression the frame serial number on the "prototype" is on the front strap----right? The serial number on the frame of the Perfected revolver is on the butt.

Get a letter!!!

It would seem I have a problem with first grade arithmetic! First off, the difference in the respective revolver frame lengths mentioned above is .070"---not .060". Next, it is not necessary to shorten the bottom of 1st/2nd barrels by that much---.035-.040" will do fine.

Modelof1891 · #11 02-18-2013, 10:00 PM

Rct269

The serial number is on the front strap and I will send for a letter. I often wonder if an example like this would even be on the books.
Thanks Ralph for your research and keen eye!

Terry Wagner

Modelof1891 · #12 06-17-2013, 05:09 PM

The factory letter came in and guess what???

It was noted as the Third Model Single Shot and is NOT a prototype.

It did leave the factory as a blued gun and that is evident.

The earlier number on the frame than the first recorded issue third model, does not stand out as anything special.

rct269 · #13 06-23-2013, 10:15 AM

Okay, Jinks says it's not a prototype. What's a prototype? A prototype is "the first thing or being of its kind"----the original. This ain't it!

So what is this----the final product? Nope----not even close! It has a different frame and a different barrel than the final product. So that makes it one of our favorite things to talk about---a transitional model; except this is a real one------not something with a screw slot .005" thinner/wider than a later rendition.

So this "does not stand out as anything special".

Oh yeah?!! It does to me!

Ralph Tremaine