Hi to all
Im Trying to find out any information on the Transitional model 1 1/2 Smith (Flat sided brl and Birds head grip frame )approx 650 were made but trying to find pictures or information is a bit scetchy to say the least ,all i can find is one which was sold by auction December last year at Rock Island Auction. Where did they go or does anybody out there have one , are they that rare ?

The so called Transition model was not a transition at all. After production of the second model had begun, a company that had supplied barrels and cylinders for the first model discovered a quantity of barrels and cylinders that had not been delivered. Instead of junking the parts S&W chose to alter a like quantity of second model frames for the old style barrels to use them up. If the original number made was only 850, I am not surprised that they are seldom seen. If the survival rate were 10%, the number remaining would be only 85. Even if the survival rate is 20%, that is only 170 guns.

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Tom
1560

The Old 11/2 - new 11/2 was dubbed the transition model by John Parsons in his book Smith &Wesson revolvers Tom is right it is not a transition but rather Smith & Wesson using up a extra barrels and cylinders.However it been labeled thru the years as Model number one and a half Transition model, I would not call it rare a bit scarce. serial range 27200 to 29000. I have had four since the Tuscon show. Three in 60% or better condition and one a real poor condition one i have seen three cased one double cased one engraved gold plated in a French case..That is my thoughts on the subject
Ron SWCA 20

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www.model2project.com

Thanks for the Information ,did they have there own serial no range or were they mixed with other models ? and can anyone recommend any books with these in ,ive looked on the net and only managed to come up with one photo of them ....regards

Prior to them being labeled a "Transition" model, they were called the "Mongrel". As others stated, just to use up the parts to get to the full 1 1/2 Second Issue production.

I really despise the birdshead grips on this model but couldn't pass on a duo. Here's the cased pair Ron referred to.

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Pace

Finally got around to taking a photo to post

http://www.fototime.com/inv/BD1631F491EDD6D

I'm glad Pace doesn't like these that much so I don't have to worry about getting traded out of it.

cb

I'd not argue with Ron about the relative scarcity of the transition model, but they are not seen often. The one in my collection is one Ron used to own and was good enough to sell to me. You should certainly buy one or more books if you're interested, I recommend "The Standard Catalog Of Smith & Wesson" and Jinks and Neal's book.

To wrapup this thread, here is a photo of the Old Model, Transition and New Models together. The hires photo has been added to
http://www.fototime.com/inv/BD1631F491EDD6D

I think there is more than meets the eye with this model ,and believe this is a model in its own right ,its interesting that this called a transitional model if Smith and Wesson wanted to use parts up before they introduced the last model it just does not make sense from a commercial point of view as then as now labour is one of the biggest out lays of any company so why waste labour fitting polishing etc when in the wings rests a new design which would be more appealing to the Public ,maybe it was a big step forward from the old square design to try to make it a more of a streamline design also to make or order extra frames grips springs etc to to complete just a barrel and cylinder in to a complete revolver also doesn't make sense from a commercial point of view that is .

The term " Transition Model" is misleading because it was not a gun introduced between the first model and second model, but something that was built after the second model was in production. S&W was selling more guns than they could build in house during and immediately after the Civil War , so they contracted with Savage to build some parts. After the second model was in production, Savage notified S&W that they had completed barrels and cylinders on hand that had been paid for and asked for disposition. Rather than scrap parts that had already been paid for, S&W came up with a way to use them, thus building a mongrel gun. Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson didn't become the richest men in MA by throwing money away.

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Tom
1560

Do I detect a certain wave & dot pattern on that barrel? Hummmmmmmm?

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Pace

I feel like the New Model engraving in the three gun photo is an archetype of LD Nimschke engraving at that period of time (his late, high production period). I base this partially on the engraving study done by Dr Fredric A Harris, who took his expertise at medical micro photography and applied it to metal engraving. Unfortunately, his untimely death occurred before the book was published. His book is titled "Firearm Engraving As a Decorative Art". It was printed posthumously, but I think in maybe only one fairly small printing and so has never gotten the exposure it deserves. It is of less value to S&W collectors as to especially Winchester collectors due to the subject matter he studied, but of course he covers Nimschke. The study he did of Nimschke claimed that he was the only engraver who was able to create scrolls virtually from beginning to end in one fluid motion, with the length of each chisel cut from outside to inside continuously modulated in length as the scroll progressed. This claim is consistent with all the 19th century engraving I have studied. Dr Harris illustrated this by measuring the length of each chisel cut with an optical micrometer and plotting the chip length versus the number of the stroke. In any case, Dr Harris' book made me a believer in microscopic evaluation of engraving. Having worked around the semiconductor industry, I already owned a Bausch & Lomb stereo microscope which gives a superb 3D view of objects at the scale needed here (usually 7 to 21x magnification). I highly recommend this kind of tool for serious engraving study, however good digital cameras today can zoom in and provide equivalent 2D views, they just lose the 3D character of the stereo microscope. As Dr Harris' book shows, most engraving at that scale looks pretty gross and messy, but Nimschke in the period of the 1 1/2 New Model is art at every scale. (Even Nimschke in the 1860s and 1870s fails to have the beauty at high magnification seen here, although much of that engraving is his best from the normal eye view; ie scrolls that overlap, vignettes, overall design, etc)

The attached photo illustrates this and I have at least three 1 1/2 New Models that clearly show this, along with motifs that match both photos and rubbings in the LD Nimschke book, but his one is the most prototypical.

The Transition Model has a lot of Nimschke character to it also, and I am interested in any opinions for or against. I have been told for years that only 4 engraved Transition models are known, but I have not been privileged to meet any of the others.

The Old Model is what I would say is one that I can't rule Nimschke out, but would be less sure.

If all three were his engraving, I would have to say it would make it a pretty special set.

crossv

Thanks for the laugh this morning CB. If I was trying to verify a Nimschke, I'd probably send it to you.

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Pace

What has always amazed me about the 'Transitional Model' is the hefty premium that is placed on one relative to the first model and second model (that is, about three or four times the price of the other models). Granted, there were probably less than a thousand produced and the survival rate would be much less. However, what immediately comes to mind when one discusses using newly found parts in a current production firearm is the 'Long-Fluted' Colt Single Action Army that was produced from 1913 to 1915. In 1905, Colt had discontinued their Colt 1878 Double Action revolver and had approximately 1500 cylinders left over. They elected to utilize them in their infamous Single Action Army revolver. I realize that probably close to twice the number of Long-Fluted Colt revolvers were produced, as compared to the Transitional Model, and the survival rate of the Long-Fluted Colt would likely be far greater than the Transitional Model, as the Long-Fluted Model was produced about 50 years after the Transitional Model. I really like these old 1 1/2's, but I don't think anyone would argue with me that when it comes to antique firearms, the Single Action Army has a much greater following, collector base, value, etc., etc., than does the Smith and Wesson Model 1 1/2. Yet, having noted all of the above, despite the infinitely greater popularity of the Colt Single Action Army, a Long-Fluted Model only brings a 5 to 10 % premium over a comparable revolver produced in the 1913 to 1915 era. Without a doubt, the Transitional Model should bring a premium, and maybe greater than the 5 or 10% premium the Long-Fluted Model brings compared to its contemporaries, due to greater rarity, but is the three-fold or four-fold premium of the Transitional Model relative to its contemporaries justifiable or even sustainable? Just my observations...

I always refer back to the old adage...

Anything is worth exactly what a buyer is willing to pay at the time a seller is willing to sell, nothing more, nothing less.

That said, the prices are still being paid.

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Pace

I am under the impression that the survival rate of the pre-top break S&Ws is only 5% at best. If the starting point of the Transition 1 1/2 was 650 units then the surviving number drops to around 33 revolvers. I doubt that I've seen more than ten over a 40 year period.

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Mike Maher #283

Turning out to be an interesting post this one ,does anybody know what Smith and Wesson marketed this model as ,collectors call it The Mongrel or the Transitional model but what about the actual Manufacturer what did they market this model as ,i still believe this should be a model in its own right wether they had parts left over, somebody would still have to sit down and design this even before going ahead with the Manufacture of this model ,I think because when collecting became popular somebody couldn't find much information about this so they Pidgeon holed this in to the Mongrel or Transition model .as for rarity ,they are rare if only 5 % have survived to this day its only common sense to realise this fact .I think we have to give this model a proper term or find some advertising broad sheet or through the Smith and wesson records to see what they called it ,Love the 3 Engraved Smith and Wessons in this post all beauties

I think I would identify as a Model 1 1/2 1st Issue round butt. Or, possibly a Model 1 1/2 2nd Issue Flat Side. I think those names are less offensive than "Mongrel".

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I recently acquired a S&W 1 1/2 transition model, and I consider it to be really a particular model rather than the simple assembly of a first issue barrel and cylinder on a second issue's frame.

First, the cylinder stop on the first issue is placed under the cylinder, so that the five notches on the cylinder have to be placed between the chambers, as on the second issue, the cylinder stop is placed over the cylinder (as it was already on the 1st ans 2nd models), so that the notches have to be placed on the axis of the chambers.
This is why this full cylinder is a specific part of the transition model which cannot be mounted on a 1st issue.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1404493674
At left, the 1st issue's cylinder, and the transition model's at right.

It is the same with the frame, as the base of the 1st issue, where the barrel locks, is much wider than the one of the second issue. So, the octogonal barrel of the transition model can only be mounted on its specific frame, although it looks like a 2nd issue's frame.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/attachm...1&d=1404493949
At left, the barrel latch of the first issue, and the one of the 2nd issue at right.

I heard that some guys who thought that they could make easy money by buying a 1st and a 2nd issue model 1 1/2 and mixing the parts to obtain a transition model of much greater value, were fooled by these specifics that they didn't know !

Attached Images

	barill10.jpg (120.2 KB, 75 views)
	bases10.jpg (60.0 KB, 65 views)

Patbar, nice photos. I'm glad to see this thread revived. I have a weakness for the antique stuff. The best fakery that I've seen on these 1 1/2 'Transitions' is where a 1st Model barrel has been mounted on a 2nd Model frame. At first blush, it appears correct but upon closer inspection the uselessness of ruining two revolvers is apparent.

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Mike Maher #283

Hi,

I believe that 400 s*w were sold in France

Daniel
SWCA 2471

Attached Images

DSCN4062.jpg (161.7 KB, 44 views)

Hi,
I read this information too I don't remember where.
On the other side, in Jim Supica and Richard Nahas 'Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson', it is said that of the 650 transition model possibly produced, 450 were shipped to CW May for export to Japan in 1869, and 200 shipped to JW Storrs on April 19, 1869.
So, which information is true ?

I also have read the above information. To the OP; if this info is accurate then there cannot be very many in the states yet there is the "double cased set", the "four since Tucson", my two, crossv's and pace40's Transitions. If my addition is worth a whit, that makes 10. I'm sure there are more in the weeds as I've seen a few.

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Mike Maher #283

I see that Danalex is located in France, and that the transition model on the photo he posted doesn't have any blue left.
I too am located in France and my own S&W is in the same state.
It is known that France bought quite a lot of handguns in the U.S. during the 1870 war against Prussia, mainly Remington New Army models in .44 cal, and also S&W model 2.
All these guns were put in the white as it was traditional at the time in the French army (it was a way to be sure that the soldiers took good care of their gun, as the smallest rust stain was a sure way to get some punishement).
So, if 400 transition models were actually exported to France, would it be possible that, being of the same caliber than the model 2, they were bought by the French army to arm some officers ?

j'ai lu cette info dans le livre de Roy G. Jinks ,Histoire de S&W.
March 17, 1869 : 50 to C.W. May for Sale in Japan
April 19, 1869 : 200 to J.W. Storrs of New York City
May 17, 1869 / 400 to C.W. May for Sale in France

Juste avant la guerre de 1870-1871

Daniel
SWCA 2471

Small error translator !!!

I read the info in the book of Roy G. Jinks, History of S & W.
March 17, 1869 to C. W. May 50 for Sale in Japan
April 19, 1869 200 to JW Storrs of New York City
May 17, 1869/400 to C. W. May for Sale in France

Just before the war of 1870-1871

Daniel
SWCA 2471

100 sending the February 18, 1869

Daniel
SWCA 2471

Attached Files

n° 1 12 transition.pdf (555.4 KB, 63 views)

Thanks for this very interesting letter, Daniel.
It seems that the true information comes from Roy G. Jinks and that Jim Supica and Richard Nahas in their 'Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson' made a mistake thinking that all of the 450 units shipped to C.W. May were for Japan.

According to Roy's book, there were about 1500 barrels and cylinders made up by Savage and King. He further states that 650 were assembled into guns with 400 to France, 50 to Japan and 200 to Storrs.

There is no way of knowing if Storrs sent any more of those 200 overseas as they were a large distributor of S&W's to Europe.

Assuming that they all stayed in country, at a 20% survival rate which most feel is generous, that's only 40 guns in the US of A. Less than one per state. I would say that they would be tough to find.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I can almost see where these guns could be referred to as a transitional gun not so much as a transition from one model to another but more of a frankengun made up of features of both styles.

One must remember that the frames for these guns had to be made up. You could not fit the wider first issue barrel onto the thinner second issue frame. So these 650 or so guns were specially made using frames of the second issue design but wider to accept the first issue barrel.

Remember too that the first issue has the under cylinder, cylinder stop whereas the the second issue or new model has the top strap cylinder stop. The mongrel has the grip shape of the new model as well as the top strap cylinder stop.

These truly are a unique gun made specifically by a thrifty company during a recession so as not to waste or scrap parts that had been made by an outside source and already paid for.

To me they fall into a similar niche as the 2nd quality guns. Again, Messrs. Smith and Wesson not wanting to waste made parts sold these miss-formed frames as 2nd quality guns at a slight discount. To a shooter of the day a small blemish in the brass casting did not affect functionality and if a gun could be had for less money so be it. Today, the 2nd quality guns command a premium as not as many were built and that equals rare.

It is similar to the 28 being the stripped version of the 27 or the 46 being the stripped version of the model 41. Originally selling for less money but today commanding equal or higher prices due to their smaller supply.

Ain't the world of S&W a hoot.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Daniel, what is the serial number of your transitional if you care to share?

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James Redfield
LM #497

James,
I got a second transition, I now have the n ° 27739 and the 28577

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Daniel
SWCA#2471