I recently purchased a .44 S&W Russian and just received it yesterday (9/13/13) The gun appears to be in excellent condition. It appears to be polished nickel and there is no apparent rust or corrosion of any kind. It has the trigger spur on the trigger housing. The only markings on it are on the top of the barrel and those show only patent dates: Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass U.S.A. JAN. 17 & 24. 65 JULY 11 65, AUG 24 69, JULY 25 71, DEC 2 79, MAY 11 & 25 1880. The bottom of the hand grip but has a serial number 18932. I bought the gun off of the internet and paid 2700.00 for it. It is supposed to have come from an estate sale and is supposed to have been owner by Brigadier General Ethelyn Daniel as late as 1962. I was wondering in anyone could give me an opinion of the value, date of manufacture and is you could shoot Black Hills Cowboy loads safely in it or black powder only. I just joined the forum yesterday so any help any of you can give will be much appreciated.

Welcome! I gather this is a double action revolver? It sounds like a nice example. Others will be along with more information, and photos will help for this. The posting procedure is a little complicated.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I would definetly request a letter from Roy Jinks for the certificate of authenticity on your .44 Russian. I think it warrents the $50.00 and can add to value of your gun.

Nick

Welcome to the forum. We'd love to see pictures.

Thanks for the input. I just pulled up the S&W site and downloaded the form to send for information. I will try to post some pictures if I can figure out how to do it. The revolver is a single action.

I do not think any examples of a spur trigger 44DA exist. With the 1880 patent date, it would not be a Model 3 Russian either. That leaves the New Model 3 SA as the only one that fits the patent dates and serial number range. The New Model 3 SA did sell a spur trigger SA to Japan, so pictures are very important to help us identify your gun correctly.

Just saw your last post while I was preparing the above, so that additional information helps. Pictures of the gun and any specific markings like anchors or Japanese characters are also important.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

No there are no other markings on the gun, just the ones I mentioned in the first post. I tried to upload some pictures but I couldn't get it to work. The file size may be too large. I will try and take lower resolution photos and see if that work.
Thanks Much

In the meantime, there's an interesting article in this month's Handloader magazine concerning a Colt 44 Russian (collector value subsequently damaged by re-chambering to 44 Special).

I don't know spit about old guns, but he does caution against using spirited smokeless powder in older iron. Sounds like a good opportunity to learn about BP cartridge revolvers.

Be sure to send lots of good pictures to Roy Jinks with the letter request. You have described some features that are unusual for a NM#3 SA revolver and picture are essential to determine if the features are factory or after market. Ed.

scope1951,

The Barrel Address & Patent Dates you posted are found on 44 Dbl-Action Top-Break Barrels...44DA, 44DA Frontiers & 44DA Favorites!! By chance have you checked between the Ears on the Barrel beside the Barrel Latch to see if the Serial No. on the Butt & Cylinder of the Revolver match...(See Attached Photo From One Of Mine)??

Reason I ask is I'm wondering if possibly somewhere along the line the Barrel was swapped onto it from a 44 DA to a NM#3 Model Revolver...easy enough to do!! The Sash Hook...or Spur on the Triggerguard as you called it...is a mystery although Photos & the Barrel Serial No. could clear everything up...Hopefully So!!

Attached Images

NM#3 Barrel Serial No. 002.jpg (141.1 KB, 51 views)

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Masterpiece

You see the problems of buying a revolver like this over the internet. It's often much later that you can find out what it actually is, and it can be painful if you've paid a substantial price for it and it turns out to not be quite as represented. I hope this one turns out well for you.

Mild (repeat MILD) smokeless handloads won't hurt it. Black powder loads will gum it up in short order. I think new .44 R cases are available for handloading, but if not, you can always shorten .44 Magnum or .44 Special cases.

Masterpiece, Thanks for the information. It was really helpful. I looked and the serial number the barrel latch is different than the other two located on the bottom of the grip and the cylinder. Both of those are 18932 and the one under the latch is 15350. It looks like the barrel has been changed out.

Dewalt, appreciate your help also. I am not really familiar with the Black Hills Cowboy ammo. They make a .44 Russian, do you think it would be lite enough to shoot?

I am just learning how to use this forum. If I can ever figure out how to up load pictures, I will post some. Do you think that since the barrel has been changed, it will have any effect on shooting safety?

Also, I forgot to mention it but it is definitely single action.

One final piece of information. The trigger guard and the "spur" as well as the trigger appear to be new. Most likely they have been changed also.

I know nothing about the Black Hills Cowboy ammo in .44R. Cowboy ammo is typically lightly loaded because many SASS CAS shooters use older/vintage guns, and in any event, light recoil is always preferable for CAS competition. COTW gives original BP ballistics of 770 ft/sec MV with a 246 grain lead bullet. Donnelly's manual suggests using 3.6 grains of Bullseye powder with the same 246 grain bullet weight to get 700 ft/sec MV. AA #2 is about the same as Bullseye. If you use a lighter bullet, say 200 grains, I'd try about 4.0 grains of Bullseye or AA #2. This is a cartridge you should not try to magnum-ize. What you want is a load which will just be enough to reliably pop the bullet out the muzzle every time.

Unfortunately, your gun appears to be made up from parts of several revolvers, plus some after market parts, perhaps. If the seller did not inform you of those facts, you may want to discuss a refund of a substantial part of that $2700 purchase price. Complete guns, with matching numbers, sell for about 1/2 that in my area. Good Luck, Ed.

Thanks to everyone for all the help. I really appreciate all the help and information that everyone gave me. It looks like I didn't get what I paid for and I intend to contact the seller. He said he got this from his daughter in Florida that in turn got it from an estate of someone that had passed away. Hopefully, he didn't know anything about it and he will be reasonable. I will let you know what happens.

Good luck on returning it for a refund (preferable) or getting a substantial downward price adjustment. You frequently see these composite guns referred to as "Frankenguns." While minor parts replacement with the correct parts is OK, incorporation of major components from completely different gun models destroys any collector value, and what you end up with is a gun that is merely a shooter and valued as such, even if it superficially looks good. Let us know how it turns out.

Howdy

Starline makes new 44 Russian brass, although they are out of stock right now. They will make more once they get enough for a run. When I need any unusual brass from Starline I go ahead and place an order, they always produce it pretty quick, they are not like the major ammo companies who only make unusual ammo once a year. Midway is currently showing 44 Russian cowboy ammo available from Ten X and Black Hills.

A word about Cowboy ammo. Very few Cowboy Action shooters shoot old vintage guns. I almost never see vintage or original firearms at a Cowboy match. Most shoot Rugers or modern replicas made from modern steel. I am one of the rare ones who occasionally brings a vintage Colt or S&W Top Break to a match. The sole reason for Cowboy loadings is for light recoil for quick repeat shots. It is not necessarily for shooting in old guns. Personally, I never shoot Smokeless ammo in my old Top Breaks, five of them so far, I only load them with Black Powder. Shooting an old Top Break with Black Powder loads will not gum them up quickly if the ammo is assembled correctly, these guns were designed specifically in the Black Powder era to shoot Black Powder. In order to get peak performance from an old revolver with Black Powder one needs to use a bullet lubed with Black Powder compatible lube, such as SPG. Using my Black Powder handloads I can shoot my old Top Breaks through an entire match and they will not bind up. Yes, clean up from Black Powder is messier than with Smokeless, but believe it or not it is actually easier. The fouling melts away with any water based BP solvent. You will use less elbow grease cleaning up after BP than you will cleaning up after Smokeless, and there is never any leading left behind. No, I will not put Smokeless loads through my old guns, it is not a question of pressure, it is a question of the burn rate of modern Smokeless powder vs Black Powder. If you don't believe me, read what Dave Chicoine has to say about it. He has probably worked on more of these old Smiths than anybody.


oldguns


If you don't want to get involved with specially lubed bullets, you can use APP or Hodgdon Triple 7 and regular Smokeless bullets, but be aware that Triple 7 is about 15% more energetic than real Black Powder. If you try Pyrodex, you will need BP compatible lube.

Lastly, here is an excellent web page showing the 5 different Top Break models that were built on the No. 3 frame and how to identify them. Very good reference photos.

Smith and Wesson Model Three revolver information