Smith & Wesson 1874

[catfish28lm]

Have an old Smith a Wesson that I believe is an 1874 as it states this in a box on the gun, also says 1658 below it. It is a top break and the on the top of the barrel it says Smith and Wesson Springfield Mass. USA Patents and a bunch of dates followed by "reissue July 25, 1871". There are numbers on the bottom of the stock that I really could not make out. The gun is at my Moms as it was my Dad's and he passed away so I have no history on the gun but here is a picture and I can try tomorrow to get more info. Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[Jim Watson]

You have what I think is a S&W Old Model Russian, also known as the Second Model Russian or No 3 Russian 2nd Model, made 1873-1878.
The serial number is in the 1-9000 range of guns sold commercially but also contracted to Japan and Turkey.

Close examination and expert opinion are needed. The condition does not appear great, but it is an uncommon revolver, maybe very uncommon depending on caliber and destination.

[catfish28lm]

The 1658 is the serial number? Or is that on the butt? Any idea on a value?

[mmaher94087]

I believe it to be a 3rd Model Russian as I think I see the thumb screw on the top of the barrel just forward of the barrel latch and it has the "saw handle" hump in the frame. It's built on the Model Number 3 frame. This is from my feeble memory.. "reissue July 25, 1871" indicates a Russian contract reject and I believe the 'boxed 1874' might indicate that it shipped to Shyler Hartly & Graham if it has "<SHG>" on the butt. Mike #283

[catfish28lm]

That very well may be what it said as I could not make it out an dit appeared to be only a few characters.

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by catfish28lm

Have an old Smith a Wesson that I believe is an 1874 as it states this in a box on the gun, also says 1658 below it.

catfish,

Some larger photos would help immensely, but given I believe I see a Thumbscrew on top of the Barrel, your Revolver is a Commercial Model Three Russian 3rd Model!!

Concerning the 1874 you mentioned inside a Box, if that Box is more like a Rectangle...located on the Rear Frame Knuckle at a diagonal...it's a stamp placed there by an Early New York S&W Distributor (Schuyler, Hartley & Graham)!! If so, I believe if you look on the Butt...if time hasn't worn it away...you'll likely find the letters (SH) or (SHG) inside a Diamond...stamped there as well!!

As far as the No. 1658, I'm a bit confused where you're saying this is located so when you take some more photos please include a couple of it as well...wherever it's located!! I'm assuming it's the Serial No. if it's on the Butt!! Keep us posted & we'll continue on from there!!

[catfish28lm]

I will get some more pics tomorrow and post tomorrow evening. I am curious as to what the value may be as well if anyone has any idea? Also I could not get the site to allow a larger picture, any idea on how to do that?

[catfish28lm]

try this maybe it is larger

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by mmaher94087

"reissue July 25, 1871" indicates a Russian contract reject

Mike,

Hey, you know I'm the World's Slowest Typist, you beat me to the punch...Ha!!~Ha!!

Anyway...while I'm here...the Reissue marking on the Barrel doesn't necessarily mean this Revolver was Russian Contract Reject as I believe...if memory serves...there were approx. 9000 2nd & 3rd Models...built with Barrels marked "Reissue July 25,1871" instead of "Russian Model" in their own Serial No. Range for Commercial Sales!!

[catfish28lm]

the 1658 is on the gun directly above the 1874 in a (yes it is a) rectangle.

[glowe]

Definitely a Third Model. The revolver is rough, with a missing lanyard ring. The 1874 was stamped on the butt of all Second Model revolvers along with the serial number, so I am not sure the significance of that year on a Third Model. It could have signified the year this model was introduced, but it is unlikely that your gun left the factory in 1874. If the serial number is 16XX, it would have shipped around 1877, since most of the dated Third Models in the S&W database near that number were shipped in 1877. This model should have the serial number visible on the rear of the cylinder, under the locking lug and on the barrel top strap between the "ears" where the lug is mounted. Value is not an easy answer, since it depends on condition, function, and completeness. With what I think is light pitting over most of the surface, missing lanyard ring, and not knowing if it functions as it is supposed to, I would say slightly under $1000.

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by catfish28lm

try this maybe it is larger

catfish,

Thanks, Much Better...Definitely a 3rd Model as I thought!! When you get a chance, still need more photos so we can see the other markings though!! No Hurry...We're not going anywhere...Ha!!~Ha!!

[catfish28lm]

Ok will do on the pictures and Gary it appears to function fine in that it breaks and the firing mechanism and pin appear good and strong.

[opoefc]

As said above, it's a 3rd model Russian. One of 9,000 guns made with the "Reissue" stamp on the barrel rib. I'm assuming the caliber is .44 Russian centerfire, and not .44 Henry Rimfire. It's not a Russian contract reject, but a model made for other buyers than the Russians. We need good clear photos of the markings on the top of the barrel rib, the number and the stampings on the butt, the number on the back of the cylinder and on the bottom of the barrel latch. There are also small numbers on the rear of the barrel, between the "ears." If you can't get a good photo of them, tell us what they are. The back side of the right grip panel will have the gun's serial number (1658?) stamped on it if the grips are original to the gun. The gun is a single action, so when the hammer is at full cock, the cylinder should lock up in alignment with the bore. When the latch is opened and the barrel tilted down, the extractor should rise out of the cylinder to eject empty round. There's a "button pawl" just in front of the trigger guard on the bottom of the frame, that if you press it while opening the gun, the extractor will not rise to eject the rounds. If all this functions properly the gun is mechanically correct. The letters "SH" in the diamond stamp on the butt stand are attributed to Shuyler, Hartley & Graham by some sources, however other's say it's the a mark of Shoverling, Daly & Gales. Your choice. Ed

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by opoefc

The letters "SH" in the diamond stamp on the butt stand are attributed to Shuyler, Hartley & Graham by some sources, however other's say it's the a mark of Shoverling, Daly & Gales.

Ed,

Just to make note, I've owned Two (SH) stamped that "Lettered" being shipped to Schuyler, Hartley & Graham plus another with the same marking only there was a Very Tiny (G) stamped in-between & just below the (SH), but still inside the Diamond...hard to explain without seeing it!! Just curious...have you ever crossed paths with one so marked?? Reason I ask it's the only one I've ever seen or owned marked in that manner...I've heard of Two others although I never had chance to see if they were exactly the same marking!!

[opoefc]

I've never seen an SHG mark, just the SH mark, on a S&W. I have had Colt's that lettered to SHG but were not stamped. It was some Colt collectors that opined the SH meant SD&G, for reason that I don't remember now. SD&G did handle a lot of orders from S&W for Russian models, mostly the Turkish commercials, but I've never seen any dealer stamp on any of those SD&G guns. Personally, I always went with the SHG mark on S&Ws as being Schuyler, Hartley & Graham. SHG was formed in 1854 by the three friends, Schuyler, Hartley & Graham and the firm prospered in the Civil War. Hartley bought out his partners at the end of the war and became sole owner, but apparently was still using the SH mark on guns sold by his firm through the 1870s.
I've had lots of S&Ws with SH stamp, in fact I just bought a nice 2nd model Russian commercial, with that stamp, in a Yuma, AZ. gun store last weekend, very cheaply as they didn't know what it was. Ed.

[Masterpiece]

Originally Posted by opoefc

I've never seen an SHG mark, just the SH mark, on a S&W.

Ed,

Thanks!!...The main reason I asked if you'd seen it before was I'm wondering if possibly the added (G) stamped inside the Diamond may have had some significance to the Revolver being included in one of their orders going to a Specific Destination or Agency they dealt with...given Schuyler, Hartley & Graham is known to have done that with some regularity on arms they handled...including S&W's, but never took note of any (S&W or Otherwise) having this same exact marking & thought possibly you might have over the years...So I guess it'll remain a Mystery!! Appreciate it!!

[catfish28lm]

Anything else? The string of numbers on the top of the barrel are very tough to read.

[Skeetr57]

Its hard to tell from the pictures, but the barrel looks a little short to me. What does it measure from the front of the cylinder? Also, it would normally have a finger rest on the trigger guard. It could have been ordered without the rest, or had it neatly removed.

[catfish28lm]

6-1/2" from the front of the cylinder to the tip of the barrel.

[jleiper]

First, the "Reissues" were not commercials - they were contract revolvers for various governments other than Russia. It wasn't a good idea to put "Russian Model" on the top strap of a revolver headed for Turkey or Japan. This mark is found on both second and third model revolvers. Most were shipped through SH&G. Each model of revolver, second or third types, have their own serial number range sttarting at 1.
The square with the 1874 is a stamp only seen on revolvers shipped to SH&G - there were also made square 1875 and a square 1876 stamps but they have not been seen on any revolver to date.
The diamond SH is definitely an SH&G stamp as well and is not seen on Russian contract revolvers - only commercial and "reissue" marked revolvers.
I will write up a full description of the "Reissue" revolvers and post it soon.
Joe
BTW the revolver in the post is definitely a third model.

[opoefc]

Joe Leiper is one of the top collectors knowledgable about these revolvers, so I'm looking forward to his write up on them. Joe, Please post lots of pictures of these guns and the markings thereon as the info. will be of great value to us all. Ed.

[catfish28lm]

Any idea on a value?I was in a gun shop and the guy tells me it is illegal to own this in NY and I needed to turn it in at the police station and if I filled out the paperwork they could pick it up and give me a $100 for it (thought that was awful swell of them, lol)

[mmaher94087]

I think I'd get out the Hooie-Detector and don't forget to roll up your cuffs as it is too late to save the shoes. Seriously, I don't know what the NY laws are but IF that really is the case; send it to me. I'll give you $100 for it. Mike #283

[glowe]

Originally Posted by jleiper

The square with the 1874 is a stamp only seen on revolvers shipped to SH&G - there were also made square 1875 and a square 1876 stamps but they have not been seen on any revolver to date. Joe

Joe - could you tell me if this statement applies to 2nd Model Russians as well? All 2nd Models I have seen exhibit a 1874 in a rectangle stamped on the butt, so I had assumed that was a standard factory mark. I would guess that the majority of non-Russian contract guns went through SH&G anyway.

[jleiper]

I have also seen it on 2nd models and not just Reissues. It is NOT found on Russian contract revolvers. The third model Russian contract revolvers have the mark "обр.1874" on the left rear of the frame and this means Model 1874 in Russian.

The second model was introduced to the Russians through a series of prototypes delivered for approval starting in late 1871 and through out 1872. The best known are the "hacksaw handle" revolver (now in my collection!!) and the one in the Connecticut state library. The second model was considered a major improvement over the first model and the mechanical changes were incorporated into the American models then being produced at about serial 19000 (between serial 18634 and 19175).
I will try to go into more detail on the timeline of these when I do the post on the Reissues.
Joe

[glowe]

Thanks Joe - I have a 2nd Model with "RUSSIAN MODEL" stamped on the barrel and the 1974 stamp, plus what looks like a "P" on the butt. Am I correct in assuming this is a SH&G gun? This one was shipped in January, 1875.

You never stop learning on this Forum.

[jleiper]

Originally Posted by glowe

Thanks Joe - I have a 2nd Model with "RUSSIAN MODEL" stamped on the barrel and the 1974 stamp, plus what looks like a "P" on the butt. Am I correct in assuming this is a SH&G gun? This one was shipped in January, 1875.

You never stop learning on this Forum.

I would say that that is true. Yours is in the serial block that was an "over run" so it should be quite late - I'm surprised at the Jan 1875 ship date.
Joe

[catfish28lm]

Anyone have an idea on where I can unload this in NY and an approximate value?

[glowe]

Originally Posted by catfish28lm

Anyone have an idea on where I can unload this in NY and an approximate value?

I would first list it on this Forum under the For Sale Section. You can mail your antique revolver to most states without any ffl involvment or paperwork needed. You would need to provide some good photos and you might start with $1000 if you are comfortable. No interest, just lower the price until it sells to a fellow collector. The estimate is assuming the gun is in at least decent condition, but not a high condition gun.

[catfish28lm]

Thanks Gary