Since S&W patented the self contained metallic cartridge, how were the Spencer and Henry able to be made using, what would appear to me, S&W's patent on ammunition?

John Gross

Might depend on the scope of the patent claims. Could also have been manufactured under license granted by S&W.

C/

Howdy

Smith and Wesson did not patent the self contained metallic cartridge.

What they did was obtain the rights to the Rollin White patent for boring chambers completely through a revolver cylinder, so cartridges could be used in a revolver. Prior to that time, all, or most anyway, revolvers were percussion, with a cap attached to a nipple screwed into the rear of the cylinder. Rollin White, a former Colt employee dreamed up the idea of boring the chamber completely through a revolver cylinder, so that cartridges could be used. S&W had the same idea independently, but when they started their new revolver company in 1857 they did a patent search and found out they had been beaten to the punch by White. They attempted to buy the patent from him, but he refused to sell, instead he entered into a licensing arrangement with S&W whereby they paid him a royalty, I think 50 cents, for every revolver they manufactured. Their first revolver chambered what we would call today the 22 short cartridge, which had been developed in France by a man named Flobert.

All of this has nothing to do with self contained cartridges, since S&W did not patent that, they only held the rights to making a revolver that would accept cartridges.

Europe years before the 22 rimfire design by S&W. I may be wrong here, but I am under the impression that the 22 cartridge designed by the company could not be patented because of prior art. S&W's importnat patent of the era was using White's bored through cylinder, which prevented Colt from entering the market with their new revolver design until 1873. Louis-Nicolas Flobert invented the first rimfire metallic cartridge in 1845. It was made up by a bullet fit in a percussion cap without any powder.

I think any company could design a self-contained cartridge without worry of patent infringement, but I can not find information on whether Flobert actually had a patent on his design.


Driftwood beat me to it.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The concept of igniting a cartridge by detonation rather than spark or fame, goes back to the early 1800s. See Forsythe's cartridge of 1807. Napoleon had a rimfire rifle invented by Pauli in 1812. The rimfire was the first metallic cartridge developed in the US. It was based on the Flobert bulleted breech cap of 1845, which was not patented in the US, so later improvements on it, as done by S&W & others in the US was not an infringement. S&W manufactured .22RFs, and other RF calibers (50-56 Spencer, etc.) in the late 1850s, under their own name and then were succeeded by Smith, Hall & Farmer in 1860, using S&W's patent of April 17, 1860. What Daniel Wesson actually did was invent, and patent in 1858, a tool that stabilized the method of spinning the fulminate into the rim of the cartridge case during manufacture that made the cartridge reliable. B. Tyler Henry copied the idea in late 1858 and came up with the .44RF Henry rounds for the Henry rifle. By the end of the Civil War there were dozens of makers and numerous different calibers of rim fire ammo. Ed.

C'mon guys, you're funnin' with me, right? No S&W patent for a self contained metallic cartridge?

I realize S&W did not invent the self contained metallic cartridge, just like Colt did not invent the revolver. However, they were issued patent number 11,496 on August 8, 1854, for a self contained metallic cartridge. See picture below.



For reference, see the SCSW, page 62-63, Evolution of the Winchester, page 62, and (gasp! ) Smith & Wesson's website where, in describing the history of the company, they write...."In 1856 Smith & Wesson formed their second partnership to produce a small revolver designed to fire the Rimfire cartridge they patented in August of 1854"

History - Smith & Wesson

Now I believe the new cartridge was intended for their lever action firearm, but the fact is that they were issued a U.S. Patent on a self contained metallic cartridge, hence the reason for my original question.

John Gross

John - that patent was for an improvement to the cartridge, not the invention of the cartridge.


Improvement in cartridges - US 11496

UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE.

HORACE SMITH `AND DANIEL B. -WESSON, OF NCLLWICH, CONNECTICUT.

IMPROVEMENT IN CARTRIDGES.

Specification form-ing part ojfLettefrs Patent No. 11,496, dated August 8, 1854.

To all Iwhom it may concern y Be it known that we, HoeAoE SMITH and DANIEL B. WESSON, of Norwich,in the county London and State of' Connecticut, have invented a new or Improved Cartridge for Pistols, Rides, or other Fire-Arms; and we do hereby declare that the same is fully described and represented in the following specification and the accompanying drawings, letters, figures, and references thereof'.

Of' the said drawings, Figure 1 denotes an external view, and Fig. 2 a longitudinal section, ot' our improved cartridge.

-In Fig. 2, a represents the cylindrical case of' the cartridge, which may be made of thin plate-copper orany other suitable material. It is formed with a partition, b, across it and near to the. ball 1, which is to be fixed in one. end of' the cartridge., such partition forming between itself and the ball. Such chamber is to be filled with tallow or other equivalent. The powder is shown at e as placed in that part ofl the cartridge which is in rear of' the partition b. A metallic perforated disk orplate,f,is placed on the powder after it has been suitably filled into the cartridge, and between such disk (which, however, may be made of' any other material having a suitable degree ofindnration) and the closed 'end h of' the cartridge the percussion-pellet or primingg is placed, it being made to rest againstthe disk. The end h should either be made very thin and yielding, or of' some substance easily punctured by a blunt point or needle driven against it, and this for the purpose of causing priming to be inflamed either by the effect of' a smart blow given on such end of' the cartridge by thc cock of a gun, or by a blunt needle driven smartly through the end of the cartridge and against the priming while the latter is resting on the seat-piece or dskf.

The tallow used with a cartridge has been generally placed on the outside. of the ball, but never to our knowledge in a chamber within the cartridge.

Our improvement, therefore, and what we claim, is thc arranging of' the tallow within the cartridge and between the ball and charge of' powder, or in a chamber, c, suitably made in rear of the ball ot' the cartridge, whereby the necessary amount ot' tal low for a discharge is preserved with the charge in a convenient and compact form.

We are aware that in the construction of a cartridge it has been customary' to use in the same a metallic plate or disk carrying a capsule for containing the percussionpowder, and having the mouth of' such capsule opening directly against the gunpowder in l'ront'of' the said plate; we therefore do not claim such, but

What we do claim as our invention is- The employment,in the cartridge, of' the me.-

tallie or indurated disk or seat-plate, so that it shall rest directly on the powder, in combination with arranging the priming or percussionvpowder in rear of said disk, or on that side of' it opposite to thatwhch rests against the powder, our said arrangement ofl the disk and priming affording an excellent opportunity for applying the force ot' the blow b v which the priming is infiamed, such force being applied in the line ofthe axis of lhe cartridge.

In testimony whereof' we have hereto set our signatures this 10th day ofI May, A. D. 1853.

Home E SMITH. Q n.. sa DANIEL B. WESSON. lL. s] Witnesses:

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Semantics? It could be argued many inventions are simply improvements of an existing item. Even Sam Colt's 1836 revolver patent was an improvement.

Patent USX9430 - IMPROVEMENT IN FIRE-ARMS - Google Patents

Note the bold title "Improvement in Fire-Arms," and Colt's first sentence where he writes that he has "invented a new and useful Improvement in Fire-Arms."

My intention of starting this thread was not to argue who invented the self contained metallic cartridge, but clearly S&W played a role in its development/improvement. If no one knows the answer to my original question that's fine, it will remain a mystery to me. But I do find it odd that members here appear to downplay the role that S&W played in metallic cartridge development, when I always thought that such development was the single thing they were most famous for.

John Gross

Howdy

The answer to your original question is that since S&W did not hold exclusive rights on manufacturing ammunition, it was not an issue with other manufacturers such as Henry and Spencer.


I have always felt that the single thing S&W was most famous for was making revolvers. It appears that many here seem to agree.

My personal choice for the most important early patent granted S&W was the bored through cylinder. I don't think the newly formed company would have survived the competition without this technology breakthrough. This patent prohibited any other company from manufacturing this type of firearm until 1873 and gave S&W a much needed "foot-in-the-door" for over a decade before Colt could produce the Model 1873 SA and directly compete in this market. Probably how the company was able to establish itself, survive and prosper in its early years.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

"Improvement" is merely a term of art used often in the world of patent law. In fact, the majority of patents issued are actually improvements in some form or fashion over an idea which was developed many years earlier. One could say that the Rollin White patent was an improvement in revolver design over the existing cap and ball revolver. Certainly S&W did not invent or patent the idea of self-contained ammunition. But there are thousands of patents concerning improvements to self-contained ammunition. I think Pauli (or Pauly), a Swiss-Frenchman, who lived in Paris in the early 19th century, is generally credited with the invention of the fully self-contained cartridge, crude as it was at that time.

Hi Gary

You probably know this, but just a clarification. The patent for bored through chambers was not granted to S&W, it was granted to Rollin White, who had the idea before they did. S&W did enter into an arrangement with White where he licensed them to make revolvers using his patent, and they paid him a royalty for every revolver they produced until the patent expired, about 1869. That is in fact why S&W came out with their first Top Break 44 caliber revolver in 1869, they were sure Colt and the others were champing at the bit to bring cartridge revolvers to the market as soon as the White patent expired. So they came up with a completely new concept, a Top Break that would automatically dump out all the empties when you opened it. The interesting thing is, Colt was sitting on their hands and did not bring out the SAA until 1873.

And there were companies that were able to manufacture cartridge revolvers even while the White patent was still in force. I am not sure how they did it, but the little Manhattan Tip Ups were very similar to the S&W No. 1 Tip Ups, and somehow they got around he White patent while it was still in force.

Many of these companies just violated the patent and made as much as they could before they were caught. Some of the companies that were successfully litigated were ordered to modify their guns to indicate that they were made "for Smith & Wesson". Heck, even Rollin White's own revolvers were stamped thus.

Other companies came up with some really ingenious ways around the patent. The best one I can think of is the Lucius Pond front-loading revolver. The not boring the cylinder through, Pond could sell his revolver lawfully.

Mike

You are absolutely correct - I should have stated that S&W had license to practice White's patent. I knew better than to state it was S&W's patent.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Colt made a number of different modifications to their CW-era C&B revolvers to allow use of various types of metallic cartridges. These conversions were designed so as to skirt the Rollin White patent.

I believe Rollin White was working for Colt when he patented the bored-through cylinder idea, but apparently Colt was not interested in it at that time, else Colt could have had it first.

Thanks for the discussion. Some good information and opinions posted!

Looks like the answer to my question was hiding in one of my books, Spencer Repeating Firearms by Roy Marcot. He pictures several boxes of original Spencer ammunition made by Crittenenden & Tibbals, Sage Ammunition, UMC, etc., and several of them are marked as being made under S&W's patent of April 17, 1860.

Thanks again!

John Gross

Howdy Again

Rollin White went to work for Colt as a contract employee in 1849, turning barrels on a lathe. During his time working on the lathe he acquired two junk cylinders, cutting the front off of one and the rear off of the other. He assembled them together, making a cylinder with holes bored through the cylinder. He worked on his idea for the next three years. In 1852 he presented his idea to Sam Colt, who dismissed it as a novelty.

In 1854 Colt stopped employing contract workers and White's employment at Colt came to an end. White filed for his patent on April 3, 1855. On November 17, 1856 White signed the agreement with S&W. S&W started producing revolvers in 1857.

One of the attempts to get around the White patent was Colt's Thuer conversion. It used a tapered cartridge that was inserted from the front of the cylinder. The chambers were not bored through, and they were tapered to get around the White patent. The Thuer conversion was awkward to manufacture and never caught on. The Colt company eventually tasked Charles Richards with tackling the problem. The Richards Conversion featured a percussion cylinder sawed off at the rear, with a fixed breech plate at the rear. Since the White patent had expired in 1869, the Richards conversion was able to employ a simple bored through cylinder firing 44 Colt ammunition. Colt also produced the Mason Richards Conversion around this time. They finally brought out the Single Action Army, designed from the ground up to fire cartridges in 1873.

Sam Colt died in 1862 and one must wonder if he regretted dismissing Rollin White and his idea.

The story of White's patent is fascinating. White petitioned to have his patent extended by the patent office, but his petition was denied. He tried again and an act of congress was passed by both houses called the Rollin White Relief Act. In it White said how S&W had made a fortune off his patent, while he had made much less, and spent most of it in legal battles defending the patent against patent infringements. President Grant refused to sign the act, relying on testimony from the Army's Chief of Ordinance which stated that White and his patent had been a major impediment to the Union war effort by refusing to allow other companies to produce cartridge revolvers.

The bored through cylinder was only a part of the Rollin White patent, and was not designed to fire metallic cartridges. The complete patent covered a magazine containing combustible cartridges that were fed into the rear of the cylinder. It was an unworkable design, which Colt recognized. When S&W was researching patents for their revolver, they found the White patent, looked him up and bought it. S&W did the same kind of thing when they designed the No. 3 revolver and bought up several patents that could have caused problems later.

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Tom
1560

Sorry, S&W did not buy the patent. White would not sell. They reached an agreement where they paid him a royalty for every revolver they made. White still owned the rights to the patent. That is why he is the one who tried to have the patent extended.