I have a few questions regarding an Old Old Model Russian I bought a few months back. It was one of two antique S@W pistols that I purchased from a private individual.

Being somewhat of a novice collector I took a chance and bought it on a whim along with a 2nd Model American. Its a beautiful pistol and I'm proud to own it but I do have a few questions that go beyond my level of expertise.

My understanding is the gun was engraved in the late 1800's but was re-plated about 20 yrs ago. Grips pictured are modern composite but it did come with the original Walnut grips that are numbered to the pistol.

It has 3 assembly numbers visible (B168) and they all match. Locations they are present: cylinder, barrel extension, barrel latch. Underneath the grips evidence of moderate pitting exists and any numbers present on the lower grip are obscured.

Caliber is definitely .44 Russian.

What has me puzzled is the serial number stamped on the butt. Its a 4 digit number - 3,6xx - and it does match on the Walnut grips. The bottom of the grip strap does show evidence of being heavily polished and I think the serial number may be a re-stamp as both the size and font is not consistent with other's I have seen.

My understanding is a correct serial number for a 1st Model Russian should be above 6000. Is a serial number in the 3600 range possible for this pistol? If not, do the assembly numbers (B168) give any clue as to what the serial number range should actually be?

Last, the Walnut grips have the wording "AMES-43" etched into them and was done fairly recent, possibly when it was re-plated. Does this provide any clue as to where and when the re-plating was done?

Any info is appreciated.

Thanks, Ed

The only place the serial number is seen on these 2nd model civilian Americans is on the butt and on the back of the right grip panel. All other stampings are the assembly/work number (B168). I don't know of any way to presently correlate assembly numbers to serial numbers, if there was a data base of all assembly numbers on American Models, there could be a relevance between them and a serial number. If the serial number is in the 3,600 range and on the butt and the grips, the gun may be an early reject from a Russian contract, although I'm not sure the serial number 6,000 being the beginning range for civilian Russian models, is all that correct. There are some duplicate serial numbers during the period the Russians were trying to make up their minds on what they would accept design wise, and what got sent to distributors, etc. Is there any evidence of a plugged swivel hole on the butt of your gun? If so, that may explain the strange style of the serial number stamp on the butt. The engraving is an attempt at the New York dealer engraving styles, probably done years after the gun was made and done to cover up pitting before refinishing . A S&W factory historical letter will show where the gun was shipped, probably the S.H.& G or M.W.Robinson. My guess on the "Ames 43" on the grip is that it is a collection/museum mark from a prior ownership and has no connection to anything S&W. Ed.

Here is the bottom of the grip showing the serial number.

At the last Dallas Arms Collector gun show I had an engraver familiar with old West firearms take a look at it and his opinion was that it was done long ago as under magnification he could see fine pitting present inside the engraving patterns.

The previous owner, who had the re-plating done, showed me photos of the pistol prior to being re-finished. It was fully engraved as is and completely in the grey with no finish present wearing the Walnut grips that I currently have.

Thanks, Ed

I should also note that it does not seem to have been fired much. The bore is outstanding given its age and being a BP firearm. The action is superb, lockup is very tight, and the extractor works perfectly.

"I'll take it" Ops.. sorry wrong Forum.. I would have a check in the mail yesterday for a letter on this one... What a beauty... Let us know the history on her if you get more info.........

You're right about the butt serial number. That's not a factory original stamping, As I suspected, the frame originally had a butt swivel, which is another clue that the gun is a Russian contract reject. The engraving would have removed any of the Russian inspector's stamps. It's quite possible the gun has been refinished more than once. The original finish, as a Russian contract gun, would have been blue. What type of finish was done after the engraving would be hard to tell. It may have been a blue refinish as the gun would have needed refinishing after the engraving was done through the original blue finish. It's always a challenge to make reasonable, and hopefully accurate, guesses as to the history of these fine old guns. From a purists standpoint, I'm not sure the prior owner's nickel plating an engraved grey gun was advantages to the gun's value. The gun left the distributor's shop as a plain blue gun. It would not have left engraved with the original wood stocks. It would have had the typical pearl or ivory stocks if the distributor had done the New York style engraving. The gun certainly has "character." Ed.

The Russian contract reject explanation makes sense as it was originally a blued gun. That would also explain the 3600 serial range as I believe they were serialed in their own sequence. I just never considered that as my understanding was the contract guns used full serial numbers throughout and not assembly numbers. Does anyone here know if any early contract reject guns used assembly numbers throughout?

As far as engraving, my understanding is that MW Robertson had his own in-house engravers. It may not have been sold by Robertson already engraved and if it was would they have stocked a blued gun with ivories? Nickel yes, but a blued pistol seems more appropriate with Walnut stocks. Also, it could have been sold by Robertson as an ordinary blue gun with wood grips and the new owner then had the engraving done on his own dime.

What I do know is that the engraving was not done in recent times. I base that on the wear present in the patterns and what the engraver that I had look at it in person told me after examining it under magnification. He most definitely thought it was done a long time ago.

Let me be perfectly clear. I'm not trying to build up provenance to sell the pistol. Its a keeper and not for sale as its probably the only bonafide engraved 1870's revolver I will ever own. I'm just looking some good hard info to hopefully shed some light on a very interesting piece.

Anyone else have any good info regarding the early Russian contract guns?

Thanks to all, Ed

How do you know it is .44 Russian and not .44 American? Are you sure you know how to tell the difference?

Simple check is to look down the cylinder. If there is a shoulder in the chambers, it is a Russian, if bored straight through, it is an American. In this case, the barrel address and "RUSSIAN MODEL" pretty much tell the story.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

It doesn't look like a contract reject, but rather simple a period commercial first model in .44 Russian. The thing that is throwing everyone is the serial number which doesn't appear to be original. If it was 13667 it would make more sense. It appears to have the early square ended trigger so it wouldn't be later than about 19000. At 3667 and a contact reject it would more likely have full serial numbers, not assy numbers and more likely a sraight frame.
Nice revolver!
Joe

yes, its definitely chambered for .44 Russian

Thanks Joe,

I was hoping you would weight in on the subject. I thought about the serial number possibly missing a digit as the 4 digit number does not correspond with the 2nd model frame. Your explanation makes perfect sense, perhaps after being refinished they re-stamped it and left off the first digit.

What had me most confused is the wood grips match the gun at #3667. Perhaps the serial # was totally obscured and the refinisher had a set of grips laying around that were stamped #3667 and he restamped the pistol to match the grips.......I would love to know the full story but it's anyone's guess at this point

If I may ask, based upon the photos, what is your opinion of the engraving?

Thanks, Ed

Any chance of a photo of the serial number stamped in the walnut grip?

good idea

Serial number is in wrong face and wrong location so probably not original.
1_13300gripsc.jpg
Here is the inside of the grips on a first contract revolver which would be contemporary.

BTW I love the engaving. I'm not an expert on it, but it looks like NY style from the period.
Joe

Joe,

I agree fully as the style of the numbers inside the grip matches the numbers stamped on the pistol itself. Both must have been stamped at the same time, presumably when it was re-nickeled.

So at this point she continues to be a mystery.

I appreciate the complements, the engraving is beautiful. It's a timepiece of real craftsmanship from an era long ago

Thanks, Ed

For completeness, this is an OOM Russian reject with serial number in stock similar to the photo Joe posted. The barrel stamping is English with "Russian Model", the butt has a lanyard ring and no SH marking. The assy numbers are the full SN.

Attached Images

	OOMRussian_reject_stock.JPG (151.9 KB, 38 views)
	OOMRussian_reject_assy.JPG (136.4 KB, 40 views)

excellent photos, thanks

Been thinking - If the wood grips were re-stamped at the same time as the pistol they are not necessarily original to the gun. Which means it may not have left the engraver with wood stocks as opoefc suggested above........

As Joe & Crossv have said, that serial number stamped on the grips is not a factory stamping, and any gun with this nice of engraving would never have been shipped with plain wood stocks. . Ed.

yep, you were right about the grips

I never considered the grips being re-stamped.

In that case, if fitted with ivory's by the Distributor, was it SOP to pencil the serial # inside the grips?

That's toss up. The factory would have put the serial number on any pearl or ivory stocks fitted to the gun, since they would have been removed for bluing or plating and needed to be numbered to be sure they got back on the gun for which they had been fitted. A distributor may not have needed to number the grips, since their operation may not have had as many guns going through the production line, as S&W had. If a gun letters as leaving S&W as a plain blue, or plated, gun with standard wood or hard rubber grips, and going to a distributor, and it now has engraving and fancy grips, with a serial number on the grips, that serial number didn't get there by anything the factory did. Ed.

that makes sense, I have a set of old ivories on a baby Russian that are faintly pencil marked with the serial #

shes now wearing a set of grips more fitting given her stature