Admin Edit-
The topic here is IVORY, and proposed new restrictions on it.
Stay on that topic.

It does not require nor warrant general political commentary.
It does not require nor warrant discussion of other Government abuses.

Advisable reading-
Politics- Fair Warning

end of edit
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Frightening new regulations coming into effect this year regarding antique ivory pistol grips.

Here is a link to the NY Times article.

What is next.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/ar...erns.html?_r=0

Regards,
Bradford

That is one of the most ridiculous things the Gov't has attempted to do in recent memory, and definitely needs more publicity.

There is A LOT of privately held ivory, across the ENTIRE political spectrum.

People are NOT going to be happy...

I was shopping for new boots last weekend. I saw some boots made of elephant hide. What is the legal status of those?

Already strict restrictions in England and other countries.
Watching the African govt burn mountains of poached Ivory on TV made me sick to my stomach and while I appreciate freedom and fine ivory art the high price that ivory brings in the marketplace entices poaching that left unchallenged would push the animal to extinction.

Probably will have to be some sort of amnesty registration for current items and a big penalty for those caught with unregistered ivory as it promotes illegal trade.

You can't buy them in CA...........

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Hmm where have I heard of that scheme before...

I just don't get it.

The pachyderm is already dead, destroying all this ivory is so silly. If somebody could make pretty things out of my bones than I would rather have them do that than just burn them up!

that thought also crossed my mind but officials could assist in poaching ivory then arrange to have that poached ivory planted somewhere so they have to destroy it apparently.

I may have to bury my slide rule in the back yard. Yes, it is mammoth ivory, but probably from a living animal.

The topic here is IVORY, and proposed new restrictions on it.

That does not require nor warrant general political commentary.

Advisable reading-
Politics- Fair Warning

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

I'm not worried. All my Ivory stocked S&Ws are antiques and are exempt, so they will only increase in value if you want a legal S&W with Ivory stocks. California has a similar law and the State Game Wardens have been enforcing it for the last couple of years, however possession is not illegal, only resale is illegal, so if you have a gun with ivory stocks for sale, you tag it with a notice that the grips are not included in the sale, however the buyer of the gun will receive the grips as a free gift from the seller. That complies with the law. You don't put ivory stocks for sale on your gun show table as a single item, however, unless you have evidence they are over 100 yrs. old. Ed.

Well thats the exact wrong way to look at things,What about all the other S&W Collectors who like Ivory Stocks? Screw them because I am OK?

The proposed regulations would affect your antiques according to the NY Times article:

"Even when sales are still allowed, the new regulations would bring tremendous change to the legal market for ivory, which currently allows for regulated sales of items that are at least 100 years old.
To illustrate the confusion ahead, experts gave the example of what would happen under the new regulations if someone attempted the interstate sale of a 100-year-old Steinway piano with ivory keys. Such a sale has long been permissible, because the piano qualified as an antique that contained ivory imported long before the mid-1970s, when officials began proscribing the material.
But the new regulations would prohibit such a sale unless the owner could prove the ivory in the keys had entered the country through one of 13 American ports authorized to sanction ivory goods.
Given that none of those entry points had such legal power until 1982, the regulations would make it virtually impossible to legitimize the piano’s ivory, the experts said. That predicament would apply to virtually all the antique ivory in the country, barring millions of Americans from ever selling items as innocuous as teacups, dice or fountain pens."

Regards,
Bradford

Merely about eighty years old. (Sorry, no S&Ws that are affected.)

Another compelling reason to join the NRA. As a single voice, we can't really get much accomplished in Washington, however, as a member of a multi million member organization, we DO have clout.

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James Redfield
LM #497

What the hell is up with that? How can the sale of antique ivory have ANY affect one way or the other, on the elephant population?

A simple understanding of the laws of supply and demand would have helped out here. Ivory poaching is so common because the potential for profit is so great. If those "mountains of ivory" had been sold on the open market instead of burned, the markets would have been flooded for several years and the elephant population would have had a good respite from hunting pressure. Oh yeah, it would have helped the national debt of struggling Third World countries like the USA that burned a bunch.

JMHO based on economics, not politics or emotion.
Froggie

A friend who is a custom knife dealer alerted me to this elephant ivory issue about a week ago.

Interesting that the NYT article mentions mammoth ivory as exempt, and a possible substitute for elephant in some applications. I have a beautiful set of colored mammoth ivory on one 1911, and would be interested in another set if the price is right.

However, mammoth ivory --while it is a fossil -- can be nearly identical to elephant if the bark is not present. Good luck documenting that it is not elephant without a DNA or some other lab test.

Would it not be best to turn any antique ivory into the appropriate government agency for further disposal? Now days I think they make synthetic ivory that feels and looks like the real thing and does not require the killing of a Nobel animal.

From a Forbes article from 3-17-2014 - In September 2012 USFWS admitted: “we do not believe that there is a significant illegal ivory trade into this country.”
USFWS = U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

From the White House -
FACT SHEET: National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking & Commercial Ban on Trade in Elephant Ivory
-Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory: We will finalize a proposed rule that will reaffirm and clarify that sales across state lines are prohibited, except for bona fide antiques, and will prohibit sales within a state unless the seller can demonstrate an item was lawfully imported prior to 1990 for African elephants and 1975 for Asian elephants, or under an exemption document.
•Clarify the Definition of “Antique”: To qualify as an antique, an item must be more than 100 years old and meet other requirements under the Endangered Species Act. The onus will now fall on the importer, exporter, or seller to demonstrate that an item meets these criteria.

No, unless you're also open to turning your guns in as well. After all, the government knows best, right?

There is no synthetic that comes anywhere close to the real thing.

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SWHF #448

Just sit tight. Another administration down the line will knock this down.

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Wayne
Torn & Frayed

Here's hoping. I can understand the ban since there are plenty of pics to show how horrid the poaching can get. I'm not sure they will ever really stop it though. But then again it seems silly to not allow legal obtained ivory to be imported. It would keep its rare status as you would have to show documents that the tusks were obtained from animals that died of natural causes which of course does happen. Most African countries with elephants already have some very strict policing on elephants and poaching and I really thing the illegal importing primarily happens because there is no legal means of importing it. I strongly believe it would curb the problem. But I suppose all the banning and making people into law breakers provides more easy income.

Not to mention that the bulk of Ivory goes to China and not the US as they are willing to pay more for it.

I would think that in the near future an ad might read,

For Sale Tooth or Tusk colored grips, passes all test of being Ivory but in my experience this is actually high quality Faux Ivory, made to resemble Ivory in every way. Could also be Casein, Bone, Acrylic or Celluloid, but surely NOT PLASTIC.

These grips have been on this gun a long time, made back when they made realistic faux ivory grips out of realistic looking elephant tusks by people with realistic looking hands.

Due to the high quality and "realistic Looking" nature of these "Faux Ivory" Grips. I will state the price of the gun and grips separately.

Gun- $650.00
Grips- $450.00

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Thank you
Penmon AKA Jim

The slide rule qualified you as old, but made from a living animal?! You're really ancient!

Does anyone else remember S&W's "Tuskoid" grips?

Mine should all be safe.
1. W.W. Marston circa 1850
2. S&W Model No. 1, 2nd Issue, (grips # to gun, 21727) circa 1861.
3. S&W .32 Single Action, April 1878.
4. Belgian Copy of S&W Model 3 Russian 3rd model, 1877-1900
Dave

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Now what the heck am I supposed to do for a carry gun............

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Pace

Pace: Please watch the language, we have some younger members.

This whole ivory business is silly. They need to leave what ivory is in private hands alone.

Not so.
The age of the gun does not prove the age of the grips.
Can you PROVE how long they have been on the gun?
Do you have the import documentation for the ivory?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Dont tell anyone if you have them.

I agree with handejector. This law could throw a real curveball at anyone with any ivory object. I will be very hard proving the age of any ivory regardless of the age of the object it is attached to.

Stated another way:
Just because God is love, and love is blind, does not make Ray Charles God.

"Mine should all be safe."

Nothing you own is safe.

"We're after power and we mean it... There's no way
to rule innocent men. The only power any government
has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when
there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One
declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible
for men to live without breaking laws. Who
wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in
that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can
neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and
you create a nation of law-breakers."

Ayn Rand, 'Atlas Shrugged' (1957)

Posted by Lee (handejector)
Not so.
The age of the gun does not prove the age of the grips.
Can you PROVE how long they have been on the gun?
Do you have the import documentation for the ivory?

Lee, you are correct, I did not personally pick these up new from the factory, so I can't prove where they came from. I made a mistake and the .32 S.A. #144 does not have the grips numbered to the gun (I will correct the post), but I did find a Model No. One-&-One Half 2nd Issue, serial no. 85442 with the grip numbered to the gun. I do not have factory letters on any of them, so they can't be proved that way.
Ed (opoefc), Probably picked his up at the factory and that is why he is not worried. (just kidding Ed)
Dave
Here is the Model No. One-&-One Half 2nd Issue:

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Without the import papers they will still be illegal.No matter if they are numbered,You have a factory letter or picked them up in 1899 yourself.

This whole thing is going to come crashing down once the East Coast and West Coast big money families (& political donors) find out that great grandpa's ivory billiard balls and great grandma's ivory handled tableware can't be legally be handed down to the next generation.

According to a dealer friend who was present, a ranking Federal Fish & Wildlife official told a small gathering of 'concerned parties', held in recent weeks, that..... the "bar" has been intentionally set, by the drafters of the proposed regulation / executive order, at such a high level to insure that no sueccessful challenge can be mounted. As it appears right now, no person or entity will be able to produce qualifying documentary proof of age - thus, if offered for sale or sold / transferred by any means - BINGO, you are in violation both civily and criminally.

We are as on top of this as possible - be sure to support the NRA in their share of this fight, where our guns are concerned.

David

I call this kind of regulation full employment for lawyers. The Federal lawsuits will be exciting for my colleagues at the Bar!!!!

***GRJ***

With all due respect, this sounds like what a friend of mine said last year. His S&W collection is enormous, he is an avid shooter and collector, and I had always just assumed he is an NRA member. But he is a police officer, and he told me that because he is a LEO, and therefore exempt from the extreme new gun laws that were taking effect in Maryland -- licensing, fingerprinting, etc. -- he didn't need to belong to the NRA.

(I spoke to him at length that day, and explained to him that we're all in this together, and that laws that hurt me will eventually be used to hurt him as well. To my pleasant surprise, he recently showed me a copy of American Rifleman with his name on it!)

It will be interesting to see what happens to the private ownership, or even estate sales, of ivory figurines. I have friends with huge collections of Netsuke ivory figures, not to mention carved tusks and such. I have a couple of ivory piece my own self.

My late, lamented mother bought a carved ivory "geisha" in Japan many years ago. The sticker price on it (it's still on there; I own it now as a part of my personal, albeit rather small, ivory collection) was 45 dollars. A couple of years ago I saw a similar piece selling for nearly 1500 dollars.
Today - who knows?

Here's an interesting sidebar - many people collect scrimshawed, antique whale bones from the glory days of whaling. I happen to like them, too, but they're very expensive so my sole whale tooth is a replica, made from a polymer - AND REALLY HARD TO TELL!!!! But, back in the day when I was collecting scrimshaw (mostly knives, ivory and bone), I found myself in Martha's Vineyard in a shop where they did fancy things to various edged instruments including Swiss Army knives. I happened to have a large one of those in my hotel and I knew it was damaged. The guy told me to bring it to him so I did - he personally replaced the ruined red scales with gorgeous white ivory and then shipped it to a scrimshander who did a magnificent job on both sides.... and now, what do you suppose happens to that particular industry????

***GRJ***

I imagine "support" for this effort is kind like "support" for gun control.

To person on the street...

Do you support reducing elephant poaching and stopping potential extinction?

Do you support reducing gun violence?

Most people would say "Yes" to the above questions, but don't necessarily agree with the methods proposed to achieve the goals.

Guess I better not shoot any pool with my ivory cue ball that I inherited from my grandfather.....

Randy

Stupid question:

After this "law" takes effect, would my family be legally able to transport an antique piano from my in-laws in South Dakota to Colorado?

The piano "belongs" to my wife, no paperwork exists, and no money is trading hands for the transfer. We would fly to Sioux Falls, rent a Penske truck, and dive back to Denver ourselves.

Is really pathetic that I even have to ask this...

That would also mean that the transatlantic trade in historic keyboard instruments, harpsichords, clavichords, and pianos, will be wiped out, a blow to collectors and keyboardists everywhere.

Anybody wanna buy some ivory??????????

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Pace

It appears the main issue is RESALE. I would guess a gift is exempt?
From the White House -
FACT SHEET: National Strategy for Combating Wildlife Trafficking & Commercial Ban on Trade in Elephant Ivory
-Significantly Restrict Domestic Resale of Elephant Ivory:

I am on the very safe side. Those grips are really antique.

Even my second model Schofield.

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"but I did find a Model No. One-&-One Half 2nd Issue, serial no. 85442 with the grip numbered to the gun"

I don't think that will work out for you either. The grip markings could have been put on well after the gun was made. (faked if you will).

I could say a lot , but it would probably fail to follow the posting rules on this thread.

I have a few Ivory items from billiard balls to a couple finely carved figurines. Not a large valuable collection, just enough to make this sickening in more ways than one.