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  #1  
Old 08-04-2014, 12:26 PM
llcwhit llcwhit is offline
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Default So, I bought this old Revolver...

And want to know more about it.
It is a SW 44-40 Single Action, but I don't know model number or much else. It was owned by a gentleman that worked as a Deputy Sheriff in Bexar County Tx from 1896-1898. Has his original SD Myres hand tooled rig with it as well, and a photo of him wearing the gun. Pretty Cool I think!
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:27 PM
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Serial Number is 8883
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:43 PM
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It appears to be a Number Three New Model, however to be sure, tell us more about it. How many places do you see the serial number stamped ( butt, barrel, latch, right grip, cylinder, etc ?) What is the length of the barrel, as measured from the front of the cylinder to the muzzle ? The grips do not appear to be S&W factory made. Please post close up photos. Serial No. 8883 would have been made about 1880-82 range. Is the caliber stamped on the barrel? How long is the cylinder ? The holster rig appears to be much later than the gun, Post a picture of the Myers stamping. Ed.
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Old 08-04-2014, 12:54 PM
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Thanks, I will take a look and report back.
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Old 08-04-2014, 01:11 PM
Rusty Shacklford Rusty Shacklford is offline
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Hello, I must say you have a quite interesting and appealing revolver and rig.

The "New Model Number 3" was introduced in 1878.

If yours does chamber the .44-40 it was called the "New Model No. 3 Frontier"

"Smith and Wesson expanded it's line of New Model No. 3's in 1885, when they introduced a long cylinder version of this revolver to fire the Winchester .44 center fire cartridge that is commonly called the 44-40".

"...the factory produced 2072 of these revolvers."

"The Frontier model was available in blue or nickel with barrel lengths of 4", 5", and 6 1/2"."

"Sales of this model did not meet factory expectations. In March 1895, when the factory still had in inventory more than 50% of it's original factory run, the decision was reached to convert these models from the .44 Winchester caliber to .44 S&W Russian and sell them to Japan to help fulfill an order."

"... This reduced the total number of New Model No. 3 Frontiers to only 1,286 units."

---Source-"History of Smith and Wesson', author Roy G. Jinks

It appears they began producing it in 1885, converted and sold off many to Japan by 1896, and it was still offered by the factory till 1908.

If you are not aware, the factory Historian, Roy Jinks, can be contacted and can send out a letter to you regarding this weapon. It would state the year it was shipped out, where it was sent, and the original finish-barrel length-grips-etc. Whether you have bought it to shoot, collect, or as an investment I would highly recommend this.

Also, could you post some more pictures, large clear ones. There are many who would appreciate viewing such a handsome piece such as yours, and the holster too.

The holster is also, I would gather rather rare and valuable, though I have less knowledge of these things. The following link may bring you more information


S.D. Myres Saddle Company History and Maker Marks - www.vintagegunleather.com California

Have fun, and thanks for sharing

Last edited by Rusty Shacklford; 08-04-2014 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:17 PM
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I love the user name, Rusty! My neighbor, Dale, would approve. Or deny...
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:31 PM
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More pics on the way... Not sure what I am doing, but can't seem to post more than one at a time!
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:37 PM
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More pics, one at a time...
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:38 PM
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More pics coming
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:39 PM
llcwhit llcwhit is offline
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Slowly, but surely...
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:41 PM
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Sorry for my ignorance!
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:43 PM
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10 character min post
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:45 PM
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Ser number visible on butt, back of cylinder, under the lock release- all matching 8883.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:47 PM
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Lalalalalala
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Old 08-04-2014, 09:51 PM
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Looks like the stocks may be Kearsarge. Nice package.
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:15 AM
Rusty Shacklford Rusty Shacklford is offline
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Default get it lettered

Hello,

My user name-My Father in law used to work for the Gov't, as a computer programmer. He told me a number of years ago that there was a program that monitored ALL our phone calls. I laughed and thought he was a paranoid nut-job. Now I fulfill that role, and yes I do bear a resemblance, have some of the same mannerisms, but don't smoke.

On to your revolver-First I would think you want to be sure of the chambering. The .44-40 had a cylinder measuring 1 9/16" in length. The standard No. 3 revolver had a shorter 1 7/16" length. Are there markings, I cannot see from the photos, that show .44 WCF? Does a .44-40 cartridge fit? The more common .44 Russian caliber had a shorter overall length. Does the holster include a cartridge belt and are there any shells for the revolver still remaining.

The No. 3 revolver was quite popular in it's time. A variant, along with the standard No. 3, was tested and used by the US Army in the 1870's called the Schofield, after an Army officer that assisted with a few changes to the latch mechanism. The No. 3 was prominent in one of my favorite movies-"Unforgiven". Mr Eastwood is what I would call a "Gun Guy." He borrows the revolver, a Schofield, for the climax of the movie to seek revenge. If I had lived at that time it's what I would have wanted.

From what I can gather the western movies used what they had and the Colt SAA was a more durable revolver with perhaps fewer parts and less prone to breakage, therefore all cowboys had a Colt. That and they made more for the commercial American market, while many of the S&W No. 3's went to foreign military contracts such as Russia, Turkey, and Japan.

I must point out that I am not a firearms historian, but am just a past-present-future student of history and the artifacts that remain. I do not own or have examined one of these so I am going on your photos and any documentation I have or can find. There are many more informed people on this site with extensive collections that are more informative. I have included 2 websites for your perusal about the weapon and it's history that you could check out.

Can you please post some pictures of the holster, the original owner, and anything else you may have? I would have to ask where you might come across something like this, if you would say? An estate sale, that Vegas pawn shop from the History channel, and if so is Chumley really as goofy as he is on the show?

So are there any other areas I can help you with? I may not be the one to estimate approximate value, it would be worth more than money to me. I would strongly suggest contacting the S&W company for a letter about it. The cost is $50 and would more than add that to it's value. I would think Mr. Jinks would find it interesting-send him all the info you can including holster-original owner-etc., I believe he has a powerful personal interest in these artifacts as well as a profession. When the letter comes post that too, though I would obscure your own name and address. I had the day off so could spend some time with you, I'll be at work tomorrow but will check in and see how it's going.

Smith & Wesson New Model No. 3 - Guns of the Old West

NRA Museums:
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Old 08-05-2014, 12:34 AM
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Your revolver serial number is outside the range (1 to 2074) of the serial numbers for the New Model 3 Frontier Single Action (44-40) and is more likely a New Model 3 in the 44 Russian caliber. To be a 44-40 caliber with a serial number in the 8000 range it would have to have been a special order, which a factory historical letter could verify. The cylinder chambers for the 44-40 have a slight "step" to accommodate the 44-40 cartridge, where as the 44 Russian 's are a straight chamber. The barrel appears to have been cut down form the original length as the patent date stamping is incomplete and not centered on the barrel top.

B. Mower
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Old 08-05-2014, 08:51 AM
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What's with the modified trigger guard??
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:24 AM
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What's with the modified trigger guard??
The only trigger guards I have seen that are shaped like that were found on a European Russian copies with a spur. I also think Ludwig & Loewe Third Model Russian trigger guards were a little different shape than S&W Russians. I suppose that such trigger guards, with the spur removed, might fit a Model 3 S&W???
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Old 08-05-2014, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
The only trigger guards I have seen that are shaped like that were found on a European Russian copies with a spur. I also think Ludwig & Loewe Third Model Russian trigger guards were a little different shape than S&W Russians. I suppose that such trigger guards, with the spur removed, might fit a Model 3 S&W???
Ludwig Loewes and Tulas are not only visibly identical but both are parts interchangeable with Smith manufactured revolvers. The Russians bought a set of inspection gauges from Smith and both the LLs and Tulas were made to those gauges.
Joe
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Old 08-05-2014, 06:30 PM
Rusty Shacklford Rusty Shacklford is offline
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Default get it lettered

Hello, Some of my sharp eyed neighbors have pointed out some interesting things.

The stamping on top of the barrel. It should of course say "Smith and Wesson" instead of just "Wesson". The barrel was most likely shortened after it left the factory.

The trigger guard on the New Model No. 3 should be rounded and not squared off behind the trigger. Perhaps it had the Russian style trigger guard with spur?

http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/...CE5D42278A0500

Lastly the serial number range doesn't fit that associated with the Frontier model. I knew there would be some more knowledgeable folks chime in on this.

For me these things make it interesting. While I have never worked for S&W I have seen some oddities move out of a factory, and you never know what might have happened or where it may have been. Send for the letter, include clear photos, find out what they have to tell you, and let us know.
Thanks.
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:52 AM
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Good catch on the serial number. Frontiers are in 44-40 caliber, but serial numbers stop at 2072 acording to Roy Jinks book. I would suspect it may be a 44 Russian caliber. Barrel is cut, most likely from an original 6" or longer barrel.

The trigger guard on S&W Russian Models are perfectly oval and if the spur is removed, the shape will look exactly as non-spur trigger guards. That feature remains a mystery.
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:07 PM
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First thanks so much for all of the clarifications and background provided already! I completely agree that this barrel was likely cut down, although it isn't hacked up- I have since found some photos on line that are cut similarly. The trigger guard was also a question that came to me, as it back side of it is not curved forward. Upon closer inspection, I believe that the spur was probably removed. I was told this weapon was carried by a deputy, and am wondering if the removed spur and shortened barrel would support this story. Both SEEM to be mods that someone would do if they were drawing it (or expecting to do so) on a regular basis. Sort of like "dehorning" a carry pistol today. I also removed the grips- they are stamped with a font that appears to be the same as the serial number stampings. Left one is stamped 8883, right one 8884- they both also have 1605 stamped in them. They seem to be original, possibly the factory grips, carved and re installed? Is there any detail or signature if grips are from Kearsarge, as mentioned above?

The Belt/Holster rig definitely is stamped S D Myres EL PASO TX
and not Sweetwater, Tx. According to one link provided- this indicates that the leather was not produced during the time Dep Escamella was employed by Bexar County, Tx (1896-98)
He was also to have later worked as a deputy in Zapata Tx afterwards. I suppose the rig could have been still used with this pistol, just not during the Bexar County stint. It seems like the holster conforms to the shape of the pistol.

Last edited by llcwhit; 08-09-2014 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Added details
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Old 08-09-2014, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
I also removed the grips- they are stamped with a font that appears to be the same as the serial number stampings. Left one is stamped 8883, right one 8884- they both also have 1605 stamped in them. They seem to be original, possibly the factory grips, carved and re installed? Is there any detail or signature if grips are from Kearsarge, as mentioned above?
The deep-relief carved oak leaves, like yours have, are somewhat a Kearsarge signature (although I don't recall ever seeing acorns, too). Can you provide good clear photos of the grips, both front and back sides showing the numbers, off the gun?
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:37 PM
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Grips pics below
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:38 PM
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More grips pics
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Old 08-09-2014, 06:59 PM
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Front side of grips
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:02 PM
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Front side of grips again
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:19 PM
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My guess is that someone (the owner?) carved the relief in the original factory stocks (grips).
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:31 PM
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Truly an awesome rig. I live in Bexar County and appreciate our history. Thanks for posting.
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Old 08-09-2014, 07:38 PM
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oh, this is way cool. Any way you can post photos of the entire rig?
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