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  #1  
Old 05-08-2015, 07:12 PM
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Update; Bill Cross at the S&W Historical Foundation came through big time and made for one heck of a good surprise for me on this gun. Before you read anything else have a look at this letter:



And here are shots of the gun:















Along with the further documents:














edit: Everything appears to be answered, none of this is applicable any more:

So at this point most of my questions are answered.

I do wonder if the Factory installed the frame mounted hammer, that doesn't seem to be mentioned. I wonder if someone else installed that and S&W just bobbed and refinished the hammer? It seems like it would be a pretty odd thing to do. However, the trigger guard was obviously changed after the gorgeous re-finish.

Also, I probably really should figure out who to talk to to finish off the grips properly.


Below is the original text of my first post on this gun:

Quote:
Just purchased this little gem. There's good things, there's bad things, there's a lot of mystery I'm hoping someone here may be able to help me with.

Here's what I know (or think I know):
* Confirmed it is Chambered in .44 Russian
* Shortened Barrel
* Bobbed Hammer w/ Firing Pin removed
* Firing Pin installed in the frame
* Modified sight (how did they do this?)
* Factory Reblue, probably in July of 1943
* Rounded rear of trigger guard, post re-blue sadly
* Sanderson stocks, maybe originally for a K frame?
* S/N 6482 with that lovely little Star next to it

As to questions regarding this gun I have a few:
1) Has anyone ever seen this hammer conversion before?
2) Any chance the hammer/barrel/sight were factory jobs in 1943?
3) Any of the wood wizards here want to take on the task of finishing the Sanderson fitting/modifications?

Last edited by Modified; 07-23-2020 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:50 PM
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I can't answer your questions, but it looks sweet to me.
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:57 PM
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Can't answer any of your questions but it sure is a neat old piece!
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Old 05-08-2015, 07:57 PM
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Think about it, S&W was rather occupied with the War Effort in 1943 and it's highly doubtful they were doing ANY repair work in this time period. If this revolver was worked on in 1943 it was almost certainly done by a private gunsmith, perhaps someone who had retired from S&W.

As for what was done at that time, my hunch is it was the barrel shortening and installation of the front sight.

As for the Bluing, for that two periods come to mind when that level of quality in a refinish was common. First is the 1950's after Colt's introduction of the Royal Blue finish. The second is the 1970's, when Dan Wesson and S&W were doing a pretty darned good imitation of Colt's Royal Blue. Yeah, the finish on your revolver looks that good. Considering the quality and current state leads me to believe that it's from a more recent period.

Note, today S&W or Ford's does do Bluing to this level but S&W won't work on an antique and if Ford's did the work it was probably a 2 or 3 year process. If it's a Ford's finish that may have been when the firing pin conversion was done.

Yeah, I think that firing pin conversion is quite recent. Because frame mounted firing pins on revolvers are mostly a somewhat recent innovation. Folks won't ask for something if they don't have any idea it's possible. BTW, whoever did that conversion knew what they were doing because that hammer was color case hardened by a real pro.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:03 PM
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It is a well known fact that the S&W Service Center WAS operating during WWII to fix Customer Guns.I have a 2nd Model .44 Target that went back in early 1945.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter123 View Post
Yeah, I think that firing pin conversion is quite recent. Because frame mounted firing pins on revolvers are mostly a somewhat recent innovation. Folks won't ask for something if they don't have any idea it's possible. BTW, whoever did that conversion knew what they were doing because that hammer was color case hardened by a real pro.
Somewhat recent? Didn't the 22/32 Heavy Target have it in 1911?

As to the date stamp of 1943 that's a big part of the mystery since we know something was done at it at that time. I can only imagine they were busy but I do know that they did do service work all through the war, so the bluing was something they were doing for civilians at that time.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:05 PM
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Whatever work was done on this gun is July 1943 at the factory was done by the Service Dep't. The Army was overseeing the handgun production line making Victory Models, however the Service Dep't still functioned under S&Ws management, repairing S&Ws., etc. Your gun was one of them and the invoice for the work done is probably in the archives at the Springfield History Museum, filed under the name of the person who sent in the gun, and describes what work was done in July 1943. It's possible the factory did the gun smithing to create this snubby for a particular customer ( except for the stocks ) as S&W would usually do anything you wanted to pay for. Drop by the archives at the Museum, dig out the box that says" July 1943 " and tell us what you discover. Ed.

Last edited by opoefc; 11-30-2018 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:17 PM
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That looks like someone's pride and joy when they had the changes made. I like it!
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Whatever work was done on this gun is July 1943 at the factory was done by the Service Dep't. The Army was running the handgun production line making Victory Models, however the Service Dep't still functioned under S&Ws management, repairing S&Ws., etc. Your gun was one of them and the invoice for the work done is probably in the archives at the Springfield History Museum, filed under the name of the person who sent in the gun, and describes what work was done in July 1943. It's possible the factory did the gun smithing to create this snubby for a particular customer ( except for the stocks ) as S&W would usually do anything you wanted to pay for. Drop by the archives at the Museum, dig out the box that says" July 1943 " and tell us what you discover. Ed.


Time to plan a vacation to Springfield!
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Old 05-08-2015, 08:47 PM
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When I saw this gun up for auction, I knew immediately that you would be bidding on it. I wanted it but blew too much dinero in Tulsa and knew I wouldn't be able to outbid you. Congratulations! Very exciting and different snub!
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Old 05-08-2015, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAFireman View Post
That looks like someone's pride and joy when they had the changes made. I like it!
Whoever, whenever... That is one beautiful revolver! I have never seen a top break S&W (any brand top break) that looks that good.
I would proudly own that one.
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Old 05-08-2015, 10:05 PM
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Too cool! Congratulations!
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:48 AM
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Regardless, I wouldn't shoot smokeless in it as it appears you have done form the looks of the empty cases.
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boge View Post
Regardless, I wouldn't shoot smokeless in it as it appears you have done form the looks of the empty cases.
Those were just some cases I had laying around. I think they were from a box of random brass I found at a gunshow. I haven't shot this gun yet.
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Old 05-09-2015, 02:35 AM
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Well, you learn something new every day. I assumed that during WWII every square inch of S&W's facilities was dedicated to the War Effort and private citizens were told they would have to wait until the War ended.
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Old 05-09-2015, 09:11 AM
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[QUOTE=opoefc;138525711]Whatever work was done on this gun is July 1943 at the factory was done by the Service Dep't. The Army was running the handgun production line making Victory Models, however the Service Dep't still functioned under S&Ws management, repairing S&Ws., etc. QUOTE]

Ed
I didn't think the Army took over Smith & Wesson during WWII. I know they did in WWI.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:10 AM
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The frame firing pin looks like a Christy, a fairly common modification to Colt SAAs back when they were cheap and commonly modernized. Never saw one on a S&W before.
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Old 05-09-2015, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
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The frame firing pin looks like a Christy, a fairly common modification to Colt SAAs back when they were cheap and commonly modernized. Never saw one on a S&W before.
Boy, looking at the few pictures online it sure looks like you hit the nail on the head. Thanks, I had no idea Christy existed before now, looks like they did rather fine work.

Edit: So one thing poking around online down the Christy path was this tidbit; "The design originated with Idaho gunsmith Herb Bradley in the 1930s and was subsequently refined by Christy Gun Works of Sacramento, Calif."

This gun just came from Idaho. Maybe the reason there aren't any or many other S&Ws with this job done to them is that it wasn't Christy that did it, but maybe Herb Bradley?

Last edited by Modified; 05-09-2015 at 12:35 PM.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:24 PM
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Looks good to me. Even though I am not a fan of the 1st model .44 DA's (only because the trigger is so clunky and usually wears that the hammer will push off or fall by itself instead of stay securely at the lock back) THIS guy is SWEET ! Come to think of it, what a great way to overcome the soft hammer sear issue. DA only would take care of that OK.

I have a few that were refurbished in the 1943-1945 time frame. As I discovered, it seems civilians had a difficult time getting firearms for home / self protection during war years so they made due with what they had.

I have a 1st model Schofield, Wells Fargo, that letters it had been sent back to the factory in July 1945 to have the finish changed to nickel and at that time the barrel had already been cut to 5" and it was already stamped "Wells Fargo".

I have nothing but praise for S&W Factory Repairs and Refinished pieces. I judge the condition "under" the refinish when grading to attempt a reasonable buy / sell price. I wouldn't walk away from a factory refinish done prior to 1970 if I feel it is, in fact, "the" finish of the date stamped, all the metal and roll stamps are excellent and it is mechanically perfect. In the 1970s, I've examined several factory re-finished in the 1970s (much older guns not the "then" current production) that were less than perfect. I believe the old WWII metal men were retiring out at about that time and the newer men, having no experience with the older models and few parts, did the best they could with what they had. This is solely my belief which I cannot prove one way or the other, just what I "feel".

Unfortunately, the refinish date stamp gives a subsequent owner the opportunity an attempt to legitimize the refinish. For example, a gun refinished many decades ago should have some wear on the finish you'd think while you examine it to find it looks like it was refinished yesterday.

This is a buyer / owner decision that only the interested party should be concerned with. I surely have one or two with a factory refinish / repair date on them that are CLEARLY not "the" factory refinish, e.g. a low 12xxx NM3 cut for stock, that left he factory in blue, Refinished / Repaired in the 1930's, with a finish that is perfect but "brownish-blue", with the prep work not as nice as I would expect the factory to do.

Then again I have a transition American, refinished at the factory in 1923 that has a perfect blue finish that I truly believe is the 1923 finish.

As the brave knight in the Last Crusade said: Choose wisely !

Good advice, I think.

In this case I believe you chose wisely ! Congrats on that find.
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:29 PM
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That is one sweeeeeeet.....big bore belly gun!!!!!

love the grips!!!!!
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Old 05-09-2015, 12:49 PM
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Don, I'll have to dig into my notes on WW2 Army events at the factory. Maybe "took over" is too strong of a description. I recall several comments in older documents about the Army running things and that probably referred to the Victory production processes. I was part of an Army team, from Aberdeen Ordnance, that Carl Hellstrom gave a tour of the new plant in early 1952, and we joked that we were there to take over the plant again. Ed.
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Old 05-09-2015, 01:18 PM
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Well, Herb Bradley might well have put in the floating firing pin.
Or Somebody Else might have bought the firing pin kit from Christy and put it in. Dixie Gun Works was selling Christy stuff up into the 1970s.
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Old 10-20-2018, 10:25 PM
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Been taking some pictures.







just playing around with a light tent. This favorite of mine came out.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:19 PM
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Someone needs to send these photos to Uberti. A slightly longer cylinder to handle .44 Special, proper hardening of the hammer/trigger contacts, use the stronger Schofield lock and they would sell a bunch.
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:34 PM
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Your light tent experiment is a grand success. That is one cool piece !! I suspect the old Russian can still do it's job. Who made those great grips?
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Old 10-20-2018, 11:43 PM
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Your light tent experiment is a grand success. That is one cool piece !! I suspect the old Russian can still do it's job. Who made those great grips?
They are Sandersons, I think for a K frame originally, someone started adapting them to the gun but never finished. I keep planning on getting around to having the job finished right but life keeps getting in the way.
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:36 AM
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Does it take 3 1/2 years for the letter of authenticity and the SWHF records search? Inquiring minds want to know....
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:04 AM
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Sure ... go ahead. Just dangle it under my nose some more.

It's known far and wide that I have no affection for the .44 DA first models (it's a personal thing) EXCEPT yours ! I think this one is magnificent.

Somebody loved this gun and it shows. It's probably as nice to shoot as it is easy on the eye to look at. If you come visit me I'll make up a bunch of gallery loads in smokeless that won't hurt it.

It warms me to know that such a nicely modified and unique S&W is in your protective custody.
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Old 10-21-2018, 07:08 AM
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Now that’s some sexy steel! I’ve never really been interested in that particular model, but that’s some beautiful craftsmanship - I’d defintely be proud to own it. Congrats!
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by murphydog View Post
Does it take 3 1/2 years for the letter of authenticity and the SWHF records search? Inquiring minds want to know....
I've never thought to letter it, since it seems to me that most of the interesting information has to do with the modifications.

The SWHF doesn't have 1943 records do they?
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Old 10-21-2018, 10:42 AM
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Beautiful! Thank you for sharing this!

A family hand-me-down New Model 3 in .44 Russian is what led me down the path into revolvers.
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Old 10-21-2018, 11:59 AM
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. . . and here I always thought that the factory stamped "B" in a diamond as shown on the butt-frame when they refinished a gun???
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Old 10-21-2018, 12:26 PM
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. . . and here I always thought that the factory stamped "B" in a diamond as shown on the butt-frame when they refinished a gun???
I'm a bit confused by this question.

Isn't that exactly what we see here?

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Old 10-21-2018, 03:49 PM
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. . . and here I always thought that the factory stamped "B" in a diamond as shown on the butt-frame when they refinished a gun???
Yes, it's one way they marked them, but not the only way. Over the decades S&W used various ways to mark refinish at the factory. The diamond B and Star are a couple. They also used a rectangle with codes inside it. My New Model #3 was factory refinished in 1978. The rectangle stamped under the grips was "R-N 78" for Refinished Nickel 1978.
I'm not positive, but I think the Diamond B was for blued guns. Not sure if nickeled got the B, or maybe an N?

Last edited by mm93; 10-21-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 10-21-2018, 04:50 PM
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The bobbed hammer has been very nicely color case hardened. Other than the factory , this was beyond the capabilities of all but a few high end gunsmiths - even 70 years ago.

Could this have been done by King's???
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Old 10-21-2018, 06:21 PM
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The bobbed hammer has been very nicely color case hardened. Other than the factory , this was beyond the capabilities of all but a few high end gunsmiths - even 70 years ago.

Could this have been done by King's???
I'm pretty firmly convinced that the 7.43 and diamond B indicate that the gun went back to the factory for this re-finish after the hammer was modified, and after the bulk of the modifications had been completed.

The only thing that looks to be post factory refinish was a further rounding of the trigger guard. Guessing it battered the hands a bit.

While I think it's possible that King might have done such re-finishes, I don't think they did this. When King did something he pretty much always made sure his name was stamped on it.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:52 AM
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Howdy

Very nice looking Double Action 44. I have certainly never seen a frame mounted firing pin on a S&W Number 3.

There is really nothing new about frame mounted firing pins on revolvers. When the Colt Richards Conversion came out about 1872, it featured a frame mounted firing pin.








The later Richards Mason Conversion did away with the frame mounted firing pin and relied on an extension of the hammer to fire the primers. This was done to cut down on the number of parts.
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Old 11-10-2018, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixgunStrumpet View Post
Just purchased this little gem. There's good things, there's bad things, there's a lot of mystery I'm hoping someone here may be able to help me with.

Here's what I know (or think I know):
* Confirmed it is Chambered in .44 Russian
* Shortened Barrel
* Bobbed Hammer w/ Firing Pin removed
* Firing Pin installed in the frame
* Modified sight (how did they do this?)
* Factory Reblue, probably in July of 1943
* Rounded rear of trigger guard, post re-blue sadly
* Sanderson stocks, maybe originally for a K frame?
* S/N 6482 with that lovely little Star next to it

As to questions regarding this gun I have a few:
1) Has anyone ever seen this hammer conversion before?
2) Any chance the hammer/barrel/sight were factory jobs in 1943?
3) Any of the wood wizards here want to take on the task of finishing the Sanderson fitting/modifications?
















That is the best looking Bulldog I have ever seen
every detail just looks right.



what is the bbl length now? do you plan to carry it?
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Old 11-10-2018, 09:04 PM
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I,ve seen this firearm in my dreams.... and even if I haven't I will from now on Absolutely a fine piece of art!
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:12 AM
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Very nice find Caleb!
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
The Army was running the handgun production line making Victory Models, however the Service Dep't still functioned under S&Ws management, repairing S&Ws., etc. Ed.
Ed
The Army was not running Smith & Wesson during WWII.
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Old 02-27-2019, 10:04 PM
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Well, the SWHF comes through again.

I did...not expect this to have been factory modified.

When the documents arrive I'll put them here. I just have a run down on what is in them, but apparently the modifications were done in 1949 at the cost of $10.90, plus C.O.D. The 1943 stamp was a repair..
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Old 02-27-2019, 10:52 PM
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This makes the 2nd time in two days that I have seen your Model 3 on the forum. And I have to say that each time I saw it, it simply took my breath away. That gun is some kind of special...
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Old 02-28-2019, 02:05 AM
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Ask anyone ... I am not a lover of the 1st model 44 DA yet I fell in love with this one from the day you posted it. It is my favorite modified S&W I've ever seen. That the repairs ... AND modifications ... were performed by S&W all makes perfect sense.

Even if you had not been able to verify the modifications by S&W, it clearly presents as being modified by a "Master's" hand.

Double congrats on that find. Bill Cross is a extremely qualified, dedicated,historian / collector and friend. There is no one better qualified nor more motivated to be in charge of the S&WHF research than Bill.
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:00 PM
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I will clearly need to be editing the original post.
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Old 10-03-2019, 02:01 PM
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Congrats Caleb! That is outstanding news!
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Old 10-03-2019, 05:07 PM
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Congratulations and well done to all concerned with the information. I live in Spokane and have for most of my life, H.H. Dean is not a familiar store it predates my life experience, I am familiar with the location and could imagine a store front in that area. I will check with some of my older buddies and see if they have any information regarding the store and owner. I think the 1st Model D.A. in .44 Russian are beautiful and scored one awhile ago that was factory refinished and in near new original operation tightness. For their intended purpose I can see them as S&W pinnacle, sure there are modern snub nosed pieces that have more power and accuracy but I am very confident in the 1st Model's ability to get the job done, it is far from a plinker, all business...I love it.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:31 PM
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The issue with my interest in H. H. Dean from the information posted by the O.P. is basically because it is my hometown. I asked a few of my "older" friends about the address location which in my time was used as a nursing home and most recently a drug rehab type of establishment. None of them can remember a "gun store" that they would visit. I did a little local research and came up with Mr. Dean's involvement with the Great Northern RR from construction through the Cascade Mountains and later as an engineer retiring in 1939, he also owned the H.H. Dean Motor Company from 1910-20. There is also a vault with some of his photographic interests, which combined with interest in hunting and fishing in his later years led me to believe this was the guy that owned the storefront and ordered the revolver. No other Harry H. Dean and son Dodge come up in local history. I'm still poking around, more old buddies to ask.
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Old 12-26-2019, 05:04 PM
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My further "poking around" did little to provide any actual information. A few of the old guys did remember a storefront but no real "gun store" that the common guy would be attracted to. As his business card specifies he sold cameras, opticals, firearms. In that era just about any storefront could sell firearms, I can remember gas stations and hardware stores selling firearms, I can remember my uncle pawning his rifles in the local beer parlor. H. Dean specialized in photography and fishing in retirement, being a business oriented guy he kept the storefront going and probably had customers that considered his place "one stop shopping". Order up a new flyrod, a nice camera and a handgun to protect yourself from the odd Grizz, best I can do...its a dead end with no other information worth going after.

Last edited by Kinman; 12-26-2019 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 12-29-2019, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
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My further "poking around" did little to provide any actual information. A few of the old guys did remember a storefront but no real "gun store" that the common guy would be attracted to. As his business card specifies he sold cameras, opticals, firearms. In that era just about any storefront could sell firearms, I can remember gas stations and hardware stores selling firearms, I can remember my uncle pawning his rifles in the local beer parlor. H. Dean specialized in photography and fishing in retirement, being a business oriented guy he kept the storefront going and probably had customers that considered his place "one stop shopping". Order up a new flyrod, a nice camera and a handgun to protect yourself from the odd Grizz, best I can do...its a dead end with no other information worth going after.
I don't think that's a dead end at all, I think you found as much of the Spokane story possible.

Sounds like H. Dean was what we might call today a "tabletop ffl", which as you note back then was so common place for anyone who any number of things would also deal in guns, even if it was just occasional.

I may also be able to come up with some more information, I have plans this summer to head back to my family's town in Fertile, MN, which is just about 40 miles south of Thief River Falls. I'll see if I can't find some folks who may be related to, or know/knew A.F. Jones.

It does seem that A.F. Jones was a bit of a trap shooter, at least according to this Fresno Bee news paper: The Fresno Bee The Republican from Fresno, California on March 14, 1948 . Page 38

and the Missoulian:
The Missoulian from Missoula, Montana on August 18, 1946 . 13

and the Winnnipeg Free Press:
Winnipeg Free Press Newspaper Archives | Jul 17, 1940, p. 12

" iigh gunner of the championship however, was A. F. Jones. Thief River Falls, who broke 100 straight yesterday, which gave him .99 out of 200 in the two days of shooting."

Hmm, apparently he was a very *good* trapshooter.

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