I don't know much about these serial is 8569 located on the butt not front of grip strap. Is this the normal front sight also ?
I took a few pictures.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

That is a second model, and that is a normal front sight. Looks to be in very nice condition. Have you checked for an Olympic chamber? (Insert a 22LR, and if it needs to be "shoved" in the last 3/16" or so that is an Olympic chamber).

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Have you checked for an Olympic chamber?

I did check that and it wasn't

Unfortunately it's not mine.
A LGS friend has it and I was trying to help him

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Just a point of order, your single shot is not a Perfected, but simply a Second Model Single Shot. The First Model Single Shot is also called the Model of 1891 and will have that stamping on the barrel. The Third Model Single Shot is also called the Perfected, since it used the 38 Perfected Double Action frame. Nice looking Single Shot. Have you shot it yet?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, here we go again!

First, this is a FIRST Model----not a 2nd Model. Any and all who are in doubt are invited to place their $1,000 wager on the table, which I shall cover. Next, get a letter----which I shall pay for----IF the letter says it's a 2nd Model----which it absolutely, positively WILL NOT.

This is what some folks like to call a "transitional" model. I don't know why they want to call it that, because it's simply an example of S&W using up old parts. The old part in this case is the frame. It's a 1st Model frame------two pins---one for the trigger---one for the cylinder stop/bolt.

Does it look like a 2nd Model? Absolutely----and if it carried a 2nd Model serial number, it would letter as a 2nd Model. It does not carry a 2nd Model number-----and it will not letter as a 2nd Model. (See wager offer above.)

In other words (literally), there are more than a few SS's out there which are configured EXACTLY the same as this one. Some of them are 1st Models. Some of them are 2nd Models. The serial number is/will be the ONLY difference. (And as far as the serial number being on the butt goes, we consider that as a mistake. The guy who stamped the number there would have a hard time understanding that----as in: Who cares?

Bottom Line: There are several odd-ball SS's out there (most being some variation between 1st and 2nd Model). This is one of them. It is also one of them with the lowest 1st Model number I know of----which will most certainly get Terry Wagner's attention.

Ralph Tremaine

And by the by----if the frame/barrel/sight numbers don't match, it then becomes a lump of coal.

Mr. Tremaine....I won't take your wager.
Thanks for the detailed explanation on these....I learned a bit

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Ralph, you got to help me out a little bit here. I see no recoil shield, which was one hallmark of the First Model. I do see a frame that looks exactly like all Second Model frames. I do not see the Model of 1891 stamping on the barrel, but see what I would expect on a Second Model. I cannot find anything that looks like First Model. Are we sure that the serial number ranges we have all come to take as gospel are right?

I am usually wrong here, but if a gun completely matches the construction and appearance of a given model, shouldn't it be named that model regardless of the serial number??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I'm confused too.

Crossv, your 6" single shot may or may not be a 2nd Model. I grant you it looks like a 2nd Model (from a distance), but it's built on a 1st Model (two pin) frame. If its serial number is below 4,600 and something (and probably quite a bit below that), it will (almost certainly) letter as a 2nd Model. If, on the other hand, its number is (typically) in the high 'teens/low twenties (18-19-20,XXX), then it will not.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Gary I "think" the 2 pins right above trigger make it a first frame ?
The recoil shield aspect is throwing me off also.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Ralph,
You may be putting too much emphasis on defining a model strictly by serial number. Yes , S&W was known for using up old parts, but if this piece was built AS a 2nd Model, using a surplus 1st Model frame which they did further machine work on to resemble a 2nd Model and, I am confident, sold as a 2nd Model, shouldn't it be considered a 2nd Model?
After all, there are 2 pin and 3 pin .32 Army tip-ups and are just considered as a variation of the Old Army. Why shouldn't this just be considered a variation of the 2nd Model?

(Just offering a counter opinion to defining everything strictly by serial number....If it Looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck...)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

With one exception, I choose to define any given item as the factory records define it-----what the letter says.

That one exception has to do with my 8" .32 1st Model SS. I believe this to be a righteous gun. Jinks has examined it---eyes on/hands on. He too believes it's a righteous gun. His letter says it's a 10" .22. So---------------------------------

It was not/is not my intent to dictate what anyone chooses to call any given gun. They should feel free to call it anything they like. When they call it contrary to what the factory records call it, I will choose to call them confused.

Ralph Tremaine

I believe it may help one's thought process to become familiar with the history of S&W's entry into the SS pistol business (how and why the 1st Model SS came to be). I refer you to Jinks' "History" (I think.). Having digested that, sit and muse a bit. I suspect you may come to think of the 2nd Model SS as what the 1st Model should have been right from the get-go. And at that point you will come to understand and appreciate all the messing around which transpired with the 1st Model on its way to becoming the 2nd Model. And having said that, it occurs to me I don't know right off if S&W referred to/thought of the 2nd Model as an actual SECOND model or not. Someone with some period catalogs may be able to enlighten me. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn they did not----although the fact what we (collectors) call a 2nd Model has its own serial number series suggests to the contrary.

And having noted the 2nd Model has its own serial number series, one must then begin to wonder why the 3rd Model does not-------------------Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??!!!

And by the by----if the frame/barrel/sight numbers don't match, it then becomes a lump of coal.

I looked at the gun afterward and not sure where the numbers would be?
I couldn't find any.

I'm still definitely confused the serial number breakdown and where this one falls isn't helping me ?

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

The sight/latch should be numbered on the bottom---open barrel, turn upside down----see number (or not----or see number differing from frame). The barrel number is a bit more cumbersome. It should be numbered inside the recess where the sight/latch lives----open barrel----raise sight/latch---see number (typically on the right side)----from the bottom. (These numbers are facing you when you hold the gun in firing position.) All these numbers should/will match----the frame number and each other on an original, unfooledaroundwith gun. You will hear all sorts of cockamamie reasons why numbers don't match----typically from folks who have guns with mismatched numbers. Believe them at your peril.

I don't know what you mean by serial number breakdown, but that ignorance aside, I shall press on----regardless.

1st Model SS's are numbered within the same series as the .38 SA 3rd Model----theoretically from 1 to 28107. There is an extensive (but incomplete) list of all the 1st Model SS numbers in N&J. 2nd Model SS's are numbered from 1 to 4617. That's the end of the serial number breakdown----if we're both talking about the same thing. Yes? No?

Ralph Tremaine

I think so Mr. Tremaine.
This serial # would definitely be too high for a Second Model S.S. ?

Also when I looked earlier today I did look in that area some and didn't see any numbers. I will look closely at where you stated tomorrow and update.

Thanks for taking the time to try and help me on this

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Yes, the serial number (8569) is too high for a 2nd Model. A SS with that number is either a 1st or a 3rd----never mind that you don't need to know the number to distinguish between a 1st and a 3rd.

RT

And if your sight/latch and/or barrel are numbered different than the frame, you have a "frankengun". If your sight/latch and/or barrel is not numbered, they came from the Parts Department----as replacements---or additions.

This is a very interesting discussion to me and I am learning about the gun, the process and the history.

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“Speak little, do much.”

I might have missed a comment on this thread, but the pistol has extended hard rubber target stocks and that should mean that the serial number would be stamped on the front of the butt-frame. My understanding is that any gun leaving the factory with extended target or Regulation stocks would have the serial number stamped in the front. This and other comments make me believe you have a put-together pistol that seems not factory original.


Ralph, I have a few catalogs of the era, but not any at the transition years. What I can find is that both the First and Second Model SS were named the same. The "Single Shot Target Pistol" was listed as such in the 1900, 1903, and 1907 catalogs. The ".22 Single Shot Perfected New Target Pistol" was listed in the 1912 Catalog. After that, it was called "Perfected Target Pistol was listed in the 1919 and 1923 catalogs.

I am under the impression that the model and change identifications were done outside the factory well after the introductions of most early model guns. I notice that in the 1958 McHenry & Roper book Smith & Wesson Handguns, There was First, Second, and Third Model Single Shot pistols labeled as such. The 1953 Rywell book Smith & Wesson Story of the Revolver, also lists the SS pistols as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Who came up with these IDs remains a mystery to me.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This was a picture of the whole gun I'll be checking for the barrel sight numbers soon.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

There is no question the serial number on the butt is scary. Similarly, there is no question SS's with the number on the butt have lettered as authentic.

I, like any of the rest of us, looked first at the whole gun------as much of it as we could see at the outset----and made some snap judgments. Pretty much in order, my snap judgments went like this:

It's a nice gun!

I'll bet the finish is original.

I'll bet the numbers match---frame and barrel at least. (I'd certainly prefer to have a matching sight/latch, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a knot if it doesn't.)

End of snap judgments.

Would I buy this gun? Absolutely---but there are those who will pay a large premium for it because they regard it as a "transitional" item---rather than just an evolutionary odd-ball----and I won't.

Ralph Tremaine

As to who came up with this 1st/2nd Model terminology, I suspect we (the collectors) are the guilty parties----much the same as we are guilty of all this "1st/2nd/3rd/4th change" business on certain of the hand ejector models. It could be worse----the hard core lunatic fringe Ruger collectors differentiate certain of the early single actions in accord with such earth shattering differences as the shape of the thumb piece on the ejector rod. I suspect all this came about as the result of a desperate search for excuses to buy more guns.

I'm just trying to learn about this one and it does appear to be
"the lump of coal"......coal may be in my budget
I've learned a lot about these thanks to all the posters.

First thing I checked was grip frame


Luckily someone with better eyes than me could get the serial on the sight and barrel......They match each other but not the frame.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

One last question------------------------------

Are there slots/openings (cut) in the frame for the hand and the cylinder stop?

I ask because (as I noted earlier) this is a very low numbered "transitional" gun. (I suspect its very low number is pure happenstance---as I have a 1st Model (#23001) which is a stock, standard, plain vanilla gun, complete with recoil shields----and all of the revolver innards----all of which suggests these things were not put together in anything even remotely resembling serial number order.)

Ralph Tremaine

I'm a bit curious about the number of the barrel. I can't quite read the photo, but looks like a low number, but clearly the one line address. If we can see the profile of the barrel below the ejector, it might help also because I have some suspicion now of a 3rd model barrel.

cb

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

if it is read bottom to top it is 9231

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Ralph, That is brilliant! I had never thought of it quite that way....
(That may also explain the great plethora of half inch increments in barrel lengths. )

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Well, that's a first for me! This is the only one of these "transitional" items I've seen with cuts for the hand and cylinder stop. This may be old news to a "real" collector of SS's like Terry Wagner, but it's new news to me.

Ralph Tremaine

Ralph,
Another possible oddity.... I have an 8" 2nd Model SS that letters to being shipped 15 Feb 1910 to a C. L. Flannigan. Its rear sight windage adjustment is by screws from either side of the blade, while the gun under discussion has the two "clamping" screws on the rear of the sight.

Is this normal??
(Oh, and the number on the sight matches the barrel and frame number)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Normal?-------------------No, but perhaps explainable.

For openers, your sight is (at least sounds like) a 3rd Model sight----which bolts right on a 1st/2nd Model----and is a vastly superior sight (by virtue of the quick and precise windage adjustment). So what's a 3rd Model sight doing on a 2nd Model? I wasn't there, so I don't know---but here's what I believe---and why I believe it.

First, your 2nd Model shipped after the 3rd Model came into being----and I have long believed the factory updated (at least) in stock barrels----and now I believe they may have also updated in stock guns----or responded favorably to a special order (for your gun)----although I don't understand why they would have bothered to number the sight. It's worthy of note the updating of in stock barrels happened long after your gun was shipped, so I'm inclined to lean toward special order for your gun----especially since Jinks has told me they would do pretty much anything anybody would pay them to do at this point in time.

I believe they updated in stock barrels because I have one---and have seen others. Here's what I have been told about the updated barrels: A decision was made at a point in time to update 1st/2nd SS barrels remaining in stock by modifying them to also fit 3rd Models (mill the bottom flat---and shorten it a bit (.035-.040"). My barrel----1st Model, .38, 6", has been milled not just flat, but to exactly the same configuration as any/all 3rd Model barrels, fitted with the Patridge front blade common to later 3rd Models, and the 3rd Model rear sight. (This (and the others I've seen) have clearly come from the Parts Department (no numbers---and brand spanking new----except the bottoms were cold blued).

Make sense??

Ralph Tremaine

More than you might think.....
This gun is equipped with a Patridge front sight and a square notch rear. I have tracked a C.L. Flannigan that was a exhibition shooter from around that era and it would make sense that he would want something updated....

BTW, The bottom of the barrel of mine is still rounded.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Ralph,

Not to hijack this hijacked thread, but a question regarding your comment on the updated 1st & 2nd model barrels. A 3rd model with a lettered 6" barrel just sold at auction for what I thought was a very low price (I was the bargain basement underbidder). I hope it went to someone here. How many short barreled 3rds are out there? Were they 6" 1st model barrels or shortened 3rd's?

Bob

I may as well continue on with my ignorant questions on these and try to figure out the sight barrel combination.
It does seem a bit odd that they "happen" to be within 700 of the frame.
That being said....doesn't appear to me in my ignorance with the barrel markings to be a 1st model one.
With a serial number in the 9,000 range shouldn't be a second model one?
Not knowing how to read the serial number doesn't help as it could be in the 1,000 range read the other way ?
and with this type of rear sight doesn't seem right for a 3rd ?

Can anyone tell I'm still confused.....LOL

Another picture to hopefully help

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

The bottom of your barrel appears to be radiused----as opposed to "flat"---hence a 1st/2nd barrel. Serial number says 1st Model. Barrel address says 2nd Model. Pick one. I pick 1st Model. So why isn't the barrel marking correct (Model of '91)? Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one. Why?? Now we're back where we started. My solution is: "Don't sweat the small stuff!"------it's hazardous to your health!!

We, as collectors, are happy campers when everything is perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Ralph Tremaine

And the rear sight on this gun is that of a 1st/2nd----not a 3rd.

But---------if you buy this----and if you shoot it, do yourself a favor and get a hold of a 3rd Model rear sight. It will bolt right on, and is vastly superior.

It is Radiused

Thanks.....bit of a grin.... that apparently I was confused for a good reason

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

How many short barreled 3rds are out there?----an excellent question! I don't have the first clue! 3rds were cataloged as 10" guns. Both 6 & 8" 3rds were made. I have a 6" 3rd. Bought it the mid-90's from the Bonhomme(??) auction folks in San Francisco. It's as new---allegedly from the factory collection---does not letter as such----was shipped to Wm. Reed & Co. in Boston. They were 6" 3rd Model barrels (made that way), not 1st's, not shortened 3rds. I have seen exactly three of them in 50 years of poking around. I have never seen a legitimate 8" 3rd.

As an aside, I need two guns to (essentially) complete my collection of target guns. They are an 8" 3rd Model SS, and a 6" 2nd Model SS. I expect to die without them. Perhaps I'll come across them after that-----or not.

Ralph Tremaine

I said the short 3rd barrels were made that way----not shortened. On second thought, that doesn't make good sense. There's no way in hell I'm going to pop for forging dies for a handful of short barrels. I'm going to cut down 10" barrel forgings, and get on with the program.

So it is not flat bottomed, so not a 3rd barrel. But the serial really does look to be 9231 stamped from bottom to top - so read from outside the barrel and looks like possibly overstamped to me. I am just going by memory but I thought the barrel was normally stamped going the other way. And 9231 is not really a number for a 2nd model barrel is it? Could be for a new low number 1st to 2nd transition, but strange if not matching frame and frame not stamped on front of grip...?

I can make out the 9231 just fine----reading from bottom up. 4-5 SS's I just grabbed all have barrel numbers which read from the top down. I can't make much of anything sensible reading this one from the top down. 9231 is absolutely not a 2nd Model number. I know of only one 3rd Model with a radiused barrel (bottom)----and this ain't it!

That leaves this as a 1st Model barrel with a 2nd Model barrel address.

Under the heading of miscellaneous dic-doc proving absolutely nothing, neither the frame nor barrel number of this gun is in N&J.

Quittin' time!!

Ralph Tremaine

If it Looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck...)

an odd one

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one.

That I find very interesting.
What is the approximate serial of that gun?

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Here is a picture of my first model of 91 with the side adjustment screws, of which the screws are smaller & the sight blade is thinner, than the Perfected 3rd model sights on barrel at left.

Attached Images

DSCF2906.jpg (84.2 KB, 27 views)

I'm still trying to learn these but think you have two third model sights pictured. Does that sight on your first model S.S. number correctly ?

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Well now--------you have presented a sight totally unknown to me. More importantly, you have presented a sight totally unknown to the late Bob Neal. He wrote THE book on S&W sights.

I once presented a sight totally unknown to him too. He opined it was a one-off by a gunsmith---had me halfway believing it too. It took me three years, but I finally found another one---and then another. It wasn't a one-off-----just pretty damn rare.

So, I opine I need more information. Is this the sight you mentioned earlier----the one I pronounced as a 3rd Model sight? If so, I dimly recall it's numbered to the gun----yes? If yes, I don't have three years of patience left in me; so let me suggest you fire off an email to Jinks (along with that photo (and any/all others you deem to be of benefit))----and see what's what. Maybe it's a one-off by a gunsmith----never mind that it sure doesn't look like that to me!!

Ralph Tremaine

I don't do "approximate" serial numbers. The EXACT, COMPLETE serial number is 22530.

Ralph Tremaine

To add to your edification (and confusion/amazement if you're anything like me) this revolver was shipped June 7, 1910. 1st Model SS #23001 (which shares the 38 SA 3rd Model frame (and serial number series) with this revolver) was shipped March 9, 1905. HUH??!!! I realize this is supposed to make perfect sense in the world of S&W----but it doesn't.

To add to your edification (and confusion/amazement if you're anything like me)

I'd have to say so as I "was" still trying to make sense out of this one.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

weatherby,
I see most of the features of a first model. Hole for the cylinder stop and hand. Two pin frame.
The second model dips where the recoil shield would normally be on the first. This would be the earliest serial number I know of in that configuration.
The serial number on the butt, I have also seen on lettered single shots.
The second model type barrel with non-matching numbers, well, I would say it was added.
Post the letter as soon as you get it please!

Terry Wagner

Thanks Terry I appreciate you taking the time to comment.

The second model type barrel with non-matching numbers, well, I would say it was added.

I totally agree.

The serial number on it by what I have been trying to learn is one of the things that I found and still do find a bit baffling.

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

As Terry points out the frame seems to be a significant new example with the early serial, which makes this gun interesting. I am still interested if you have been able to examine the barrel and latch serial numbers more closely and see if they are for sure the same and if there is any indication they may have been overstamped as I suspect on the barrel. As mentioned before, I think if you hold the grip in your right hand, hold the latch open with your left thumb, the numbers on each part should read from left to right, ie top to bottom on the bbl and outside to inside on the latch (we see that the only valid reading of the barrel number is opposite this). Anyone please correct me if I am wrong on this.

It strikes me as unlikely there is a right or wrong on this number business----only usual and unusual.

While we place great importance to these numbers today, the only reason they're there is so previously fitted parts could get back together after finishing for final assembly. Any number which was upside down or backwards from the usual, would simply have been read in the manner which made sense, and the particular gun would get stuffed together, and they'd get on to the next one. I don't see a big mystery here.

Ralph Tremaine

I know the barrel and latch numbers match.
I will double check them.....probably Monday....whoops Tuesday....LOL
I'll post what the "definite" number is

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

II know this is a very old thread but figured I'd update a little.
The gun was priced as a chunk of Gold not lump of coal so it stayed at my local store. It is more of a coal price now so I may pursue it.



Terry, Ralph, and everyone else that was so helpful on this gun might find it interesting that it did ship as a first Model S.S. in march of 1897.
Something else that was odd about it were the stocks as they are dovetail relieved on the bottom for something like a pocket/bicycle rifle.
They were unnumbered.......I was looking very hard to see numbers....LOL

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Paul
S&WCA #2726

Thanks for the follow up. Fascinating discussion and 3 years wait time by the seller...must not be in a hurry to make a deal

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220