Policia de Lima Smith & Wesson 4th model?

oxi81 · #1 11-02-2015, 12:53 PM

Hello guys, I'm new here but a vintage S&W lover.

Do you have heard about a "Policia de Lima" (Peru) Smith & Wesson 4th model?

I know one for sale. .38 caliber. Nice bore. #522212

Thank you,
Francois

glowe · #2 11-02-2015, 01:30 PM

Welcome. You have a couple options for this revolver. First is that it is a S&W manufactured gun sold for use in Peru police department. The second option is that you have a foreign made copy of a S&W. Is the stamping on the barrel rib a standard S&W address/patent 2 line roll stamping? Stocks are not original and the type seen on copies.

I am inclined to say is is a S&W, but the barrel address would help verify the authenticity.

murphydog · #3 11-02-2015, 02:04 PM

Gary has good information. The photos show what appears to be a .38 Double Action or a really excellent copy. These were sold all over the world but a factory letter would be the only way to verify it went to South America. Letter requests are on hold until after 1/1/2016 at earliest, however.

oxi81 · #4 11-02-2015, 03:20 PM

Here's the barrel top rib.

glowe · #5 11-02-2015, 05:35 PM

Yup - that confirms it is a Smith & Wesson 38 Double Action, 4th Model, shipped around 1907.

model3sw · #6 11-02-2015, 08:59 PM

Just kidding but truly, I'd buy that as an original marking. I have much later S&W M37 Peruvian Police. Usually, anything coming back from South American is in awful shape. That one is pretty nice. Sal

policerevolvercollector · #7 11-02-2015, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxi81

Hello guys, I'm new here but a vintage S&W lover.

Do you have heard about a "Policia de Lima" (Peru) Smith & Wesson 4th model?

I know one for sale. .38 caliber. Nice bore. #522212

Thank you,
Francois

Very nice!! Did you buy it?

handejector · #8 11-02-2015, 11:33 PM

The Standard Catalog of S&W, 3rd ed. mentions a 1000 gun order just above the serial range of the gun in question.

Below is one I owned several yrs ago. Factory reblued in 1951.

policerevolvercollector · #9 11-03-2015, 12:24 AM

That's a VERY nice one, Lee!!

Those have eluded me ....so far!

oxi81 · #10 11-03-2015, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by policerevolvercollector

Very nice!! Did you buy it?

I try to trade it. Waiting for an answer from the seller.

#522212 is a 4th model manufactured in 1907?
For the grips, I think that it's probably a local replacement.

@handejector : thank you for the pictures.

This 1000 revolvers batch seem to have been delivered to the peruvian National Police (only the Peruvian shield on the frame, no mention). I think that the "Policia de Lima" is a local Police. Maybe a little local contract ordered by the Lima township?

Francois

handejector · #11 11-03-2015, 08:43 AM

I don't have any idea how the bureaucracy was set up.
Perhaps the national Government policed the whole country with local subdivisions. Perhaps the national Gov equipped local agencies that were not federal agencies.
At that point in time, I suspect all police were federal.

The "Policia de Lima" inscription looks to me like it was added after the factory. If they were a local agency, I would think they would have had a crest unique to that agency.

oxi81 · #12 11-03-2015, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by handejector

I don't have any idea how the bureaucracy was set up.
Perhaps the national Government policed the whole country with local subdivisions. Perhaps the national Gov equipped local agencies that were not federal agencies.
At that point in time, I suspect all police were federal.

The "Policia de Lima" inscription looks to me like it was added after the factory. If they were a local agency, I would think they would have had a crest unique to that agency.

You're probably right for the crest.
It's the national one. The Lima city crest is different.

How do you explain that the # of this one is external of the official 1000 gun batch mentionned by the standard catalog of S&W?

@policerevolvercollector : Yes, I got it. I will receive the gun in a couple of days.

Francois

handejector · #13 11-03-2015, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oxi81

How do you explain that the # of this one is external of the official 1000 gun batch mentionned by the standard catalog of S&W?

Maybe it was part of that order and just got missed when the data was compiled because it is so far away from the others in the shipping records.
Maybe it is simply an earlier order.
Get a letter and you'll know for sure.

oxi81 · #14 11-04-2015, 06:31 AM

I think also that it must be an earlier order.

Black powder only or smokeless powder can be used in this gun? I found .358 158gr RN lead bullets.
I do not want to fire a lot this good old five-shooter , but I would like to try it on the range.
I also plan a total restoration.

polishing, blueing and correct S&W grips.

Francois

oxi81 · #15 11-09-2015, 05:06 AM

I got the gun today, and the serial is 522212 (the first digit is worn and hardly readable). It's also well worn on the serial under the frame lock, but I could decypher it between the barrel "ears". It's definitely a "5".

The front sight blade is pinned to the barrel rib and the two lines patent show "May 11 1880, Jan 3 1882, April 9 1889".

So, 1908 made? Only BP proofed?

Francois

glowe · #16 11-09-2015, 09:47 AM

Your date is as good as any estimate of manufacture date without a letter. Remember that in 1908, the "new" hand ejectors were on the market and very popular. Top-break double actions were relatively slow movers in the early 1900s and would soon see the end of their production due to improvements in design and changes in buyer preferences. Inventory was probably high.

Any solid gun that is fully functional 38 DA should shoot currently manufactured 38 S&W without issues, but with anything over 100 years old, parts can break and are tough to find.

Wiregrassguy · #17 11-09-2015, 02:21 PM

I shoot smokeless .38 S&W commercial ammo in my top breaks without problem. Around 1909, S&W issued a letter stating that their top break guns were okay to shoot commercial smokeless ammo. The problem they had back then was with handloads.

oxi81 · #18 01-14-2016, 07:22 AM

Reblued gun, correct & original grips, professional hardening job on trigger and hammer and a period leather holster.

glowe · #19 01-14-2016, 01:16 PM

Thanks for the photos. You can tell that the edges of the cylinder are not factory, just a little soft. The holster may be period, but it was not made for that gun, too small. Case coloring might be original if the gun was not used much and well cared for. Nice 38 DA.

oxi81 · #20 01-14-2016, 01:35 PM

The case hardening job has been recently redone by a professional. What does mean "the edges of the cylinder are not factory"?