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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 11-27-2015, 07:09 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Default GOOD NEWS (LETTER)--BAD NEWS (GUN)

GOOD NEWS: Check for letter cleared late August---letter arrived late November. Things are looking UP!!

BAD NEWS: The gun is a NM #3 Target, #3914---with the long cylinder. It's chambered for "38 WINCHESTER CTG" (38-40) as is stamped on the (numbers matching barrel)----never mind that they were only made in 32-44 and 38-44-----says so in all the books. So, that's what it is-----and it's blue-------and the blue is that it was born with. So far, so good.

Here's what the letter (which arrived in (only) THREE MONTHS) says it is----just the bad news part: Says it's nickel-----says "There are no notes in the records on this revolver." Says "-----"the revolvers in this serial range are all 38-44 S&W cartridge revolvers."

The not so bad news says "It appears to have been a special order for one unit."

So----I now have two "mystery" guns. The other one is an 8" 1st Model SS----#14272,---.32 caliber, which letters as a 10" .22. The last line in that letter says "The mystery continues."

The last line in the NM #3 letter says "Sorry we cannot solve the mystery."

Me too!!

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 11-27-2015, 07:36 PM
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. . . The gun is a NM #3 Target, #3914---with the long cylinder. It's chambered for "38 WINCHESTER CTG" (38-40) as is stamped on the (numbers matching barrel)----never mind that they were only made in 32-44 and 38-44-----says so in all the books . . .
I don't know if this helps or not Ralph, but there are fourteen 38 Winchester guns listed in the SWCA Database. Six are SA and 8 are DA revolvers. Interesting that Neal/Jinks do not list that caliber for the NM3, but list it for the 44 DA.

Can we see the gun? No matter whether it is good or bad news, you have a very rare gun and we would love to see it.
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Old 11-27-2015, 08:17 PM
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Ralph, what a scrumptious mystery. I would be delighted. A bow that aint tied.
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:13 PM
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I am confused as to why this thread is saying the NM #3 was not made in .38 Winchester Ctg. It is its own variation with a separate serial number sequence. Of course examples from that variation are not common since only 74 were made. The idea that someone wanted one after those were all shipped and a special order made in the regular sequence doesn't seem impossible. As to why the records don't give more specific details, quien sabe.
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:26 PM
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Sounds like a cool gun, but I am a little jealous- my check cleared in May, and I still haven't seen a letter
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:38 PM
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Obvious counterfeit and i would feel better
taking that one off your hands sir.
Very nice find.
Please do post a pix or two for us to enjoy.


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Old 11-28-2015, 09:35 AM
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I am confused as to why this thread is saying the NM #3 was not made in .38 Winchester Ctg . . .
Thanks for the reference. I was looking in the main section for the NM3 that listed many calibers available, but 38-40 was not among them. I see now that it has its own listing in Neal/Jinks book under the 38 caliber revolver section on page 152.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:43 AM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Yeah, but-------------------------------

The NM #3 (per se, numbered 1-35796) with or without target sights is one gun. The NM #3 in 38-40 (per se, numbered 1-74) with or without target sights is another gun------AND the NM #3 TARGET (per se, numbered 1-4333) is yet ANOTHER gun------supposedly made only in 32-44 and 38-44 S&W.

Mine is clearly a NM #3 TARGET. By virtue of only the serial number, it could be either a NM #3-----or a NM #3 TARGET. BUT------but it carries the long cylinder----as do the NM #3's numbered 1-74. (Now I've never even seen one of these serial number 1-74 guns, but seeing as how the 38-40 cartridge is longer than the short cylinder-------!!!) And if it was a regular everyday NM #3 (with target sights)----and a long cylinder----the serial number would be over 30000----right?! Right!!

And finally (Thank God!), "the books" are what says the NM #3 TARGET was made only in 32-44 and 38-44------------and "the books" are WRONG (or, shall we say, need some work),----'cause I got one in 38-40.

And so------this is all as clear as mud right?! Now you know how I feel!

As a complete aside, I earlier noted there are "no notes in the records" on this gun. There are no notes worth talking about. They know when and where it was shipped-----October 25, 1902---Iver Johnson Sporting Goods----Boston.

Later!!

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 11-28-2015, 12:16 PM
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I believe you have figured it right, Ralph. Assuming no fooling around, your frame would have been a NM #3 Target - or Frontier. I assume your barrel marking on the side is exactly like the one in this thread (ignore that it is a double action, the NM .38 Winchester is the same marking).
Help Identifying .38/40 Winchester Top-Break
You say the barrel is numbered to your frame. I assume that is in the right hand "ear"? Is there a letter in the left ear? Is the barrel rib stamped with the one line address? Last, I assume the cylinder is also numbered to the frame? I assume the frame has no indication of going back to the factory - star or date?

I am pretty sure that extra barrels marked .38 Winchester Ctg were available over the whole production time and I suspect some were available surplus. You will note a comment in the thread above from someone "I have the parts to make one someday". Supica's book lists one .38 Winchester sold with an extra barrel - doesn't say how that barrel was marked.

You do have a particular mystery, if as I understand it your frame finish doesn't match factory records for that number NM #3 target. But we don't know about a Frontier. Either way, if all the matching numbers look just right, I would have to at least give it a reasonable chance of being some sort of special order and a rare one at that.

CB

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Old 11-28-2015, 01:28 PM
05CarbonDRZ 05CarbonDRZ is offline
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Sounds like a cool gun, but I am a little jealous- my check cleared in May, and I still haven't seen a letter
How does that work? There is some obvious line jumping going on.
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Old 11-28-2015, 04:08 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Originally Posted by crossv View Post
I believe you have figured it right, Ralph. Assuming no fooling around, your frame would have been a NM #3 Target - or Frontier. I assume your barrel marking on the side is exactly like the one in this thread (ignore that it is a double action, the NM .38 Winchester is the same marking).
Help Identifying .38/40 Winchester Top-Break
You say the barrel is numbered to your frame. I assume that is in the right hand "ear"? Is there a letter in the left ear? Is the barrel rib stamped with the one line address? Last, I assume the cylinder is also numbered to the frame? I assume the frame has no indication of going back to the factory - star or date?

I am pretty sure that extra barrels marked .38 Winchester Ctg were available over the whole production time and I suspect some were available surplus. You will note a comment in the thread above from someone "I have the parts to make one someday". Supica's book lists one .38 Winchester sold with an extra barrel - doesn't say how that barrel was marked.

You do have a particular mystery, if as I understand it your frame finish doesn't match factory records for that number NM #3 target. But we don't know about a Frontier. Either way, if all the matching numbers look just right, I would have to at least give it a reasonable chance of being some sort of special order and a rare one at that.

CB
38 WINCHESTER marking is the same as that on the DA.

Barrel serial number is on right sight.

Letter on left side is B-----as in BOOGER.

Barrel is stamped with TWO line address---as is also the case with my 32-44 and 38-44 NM #3 Targets-------but the two line stampings are not the same (32-44 & 38-44 are the same as each other----38-40 is different---shorter--some different dates--???). In the for what it's worth category, my NM #3 with target sights does have a one line address. Also in the for what it's worth category----serial numbers: 32-44-2163; 38-44-1610; 44 Russian-30261.

Cylinder is numbered to frame---as is latch/sight----as is (right side grip panel----sort of. 3915 was scratched into grip (HR)---then the five was scratched through, and a 4 added. The 4 appears to have been scratched in with the same instrument, and in the same "hand".

There are no factory service marks.

So----how am I doing so far??

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 11-28-2015, 07:04 PM
crossv crossv is offline
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Well, first I take back my comment about it might be a Frontier frame. I edited that in thinking I was covering all bases but your frame number is too high for a Frontier frame. I also realized there is another reason it is not a standard NM #3 frame - at that number the ejector system would be the rack and gear (the first of the three designs used). And in fact the earliest NM #3 targets had the short cylinder. Chicoine gives all short cylinders to #3644, mixed between that and #6645 and long cylinders above that.

You should confirm that your cylinder bores have a double set of shoulders since the .38 Winchester was a necked cartridge. Also check that you have a non rebounding hammer which would be correct for a Target model frame. Even if they built a special order with a fixed sighted .38 Winchester barrel (I didn't see in your post where you said - but I know you mostly collect target sighted guns) I would expect they would not change that characteristic.

My NM #3 .38 Winchester #64 has the "B" you found on the left ear and was blue (essentially no finish now) and also has the same "B" along with an "F" on the frame under the right stock. I don't know if it has anything to do with "blue" or not, but yours seems similar. The barrel address is mysterious - I have seen maybe two other #3 .38 Winchesters but didn't pay attention to the barrel stamping back then. Mine is the single line address and Chicoine mentions that was the case with all he examples he has seen. I will start looking for examples of the double action Frontier model in .38 Winchester for the barrel rib marking.

Bottom line, I don't see why any out of factory gunsmithing would have gotten all your numbers matching, especially since I see no incentive to match those numbers if someone just wanted to shoot the cartridge in that frame. A forgery to make a .38 Winchester would have needed to forge the numbers the other way - under 74. So I am left with the old saw - never say never with early S&W and it seems someone got a one off made somehow.

CB
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:59 PM
rct269 rct269 is offline
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Everything is as it should be on this gun. Any questions I had about that (when my thinking cap wasn't on tight enough) were resolved a long time ago. The only fly in the ointment is the documentation. It ain't there! I've been there and done that before. The lesson learned was don't spend time fretting about things you can't control----and can't fix.

My first big lesson was also a NM #3---a gorgeous example. Phase one of the lesson began when David Carroll said, "Ralph, there's something not right about that gun---you need to talk to so & so." So I did---two so & so's. Both examined that gun every place it had a place----at length. Then so & so #1 (Chicoine) said (basically), It's as bogus as a three dollar bill----and told me why. So & so #2 (Jinks) said the same thing----almost exactly the same. The gun was perfect---at first glance---which is what I gave it. The so & so's looked harder and longer---and saw things I didn't see. Lesson learned. That gun wasn't a fake (per se), but it was built to deceive----and it was built by a master. Both my so & so's were highly complimentary of the master-----but neither of them were fooled by him. Given my lesson learned, it's not likely to happen to me again. If it does, then I will have run afoul of a masterful master---and will have learned another lesson.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 11-29-2015, 10:36 AM
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Everything is as it should be on this gun. Any questions I had about that (when my thinking cap wasn't on tight enough) were resolved a long time ago. The only fly in the ointment is the documentation. It ain't there! I've been there and done that before. The lesson learned was don't spend time fretting about things you can't control----and can't fix.

My first big lesson was also a NM #3---a gorgeous example. Phase one of the lesson began when David Carroll said, "Ralph, there's something not right about that gun---you need to talk to so & so." So I did---two so & so's. Both examined that gun every place it had a place----at length. Then so & so #1 (Chicoine) said (basically), It's as bogus as a three dollar bill----and told me why. So & so #2 (Jinks) said the same thing----almost exactly the same. The gun was perfect---at first glance---which is what I gave it. The so & so's looked harder and longer---and saw things I didn't see. Lesson learned. That gun wasn't a fake (per se), but it was built to deceive----and it was built by a master. Both my so & so's were highly complimentary of the master-----but neither of them were fooled by him. Given my lesson learned, it's not likely to happen to me again. If it does, then I will have run afoul of a masterful master---and will have learned another lesson.

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph,

Can you post, in another thread perhaps (or maybe you have already done this) the story of this New Model #3, what was faked and why? Colts and Winchesters have been faked a LOT, Smith & Wesson's not as much (as the values tend not to be as much). Hopefully, this isn't the beginning of a trend!
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Old 12-04-2015, 02:43 PM
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Ralph,

Can you post, in another thread perhaps (or maybe you have already done this) the story of this New Model #3, what was faked and why? Colts and Winchesters have been faked a LOT, Smith & Wesson's not as much (as the values tend not to be as much). Hopefully, this isn't the beginning of a trend!
I may very well have already done this, but it would have been a long time back---as will become apparent as I try to do it again. (I just checked my SWCA Meeting souvenir cups to see when this tale started----Minneapolis (2005)).

So that was when David Carroll told me "---------there's something not right about this gun-------." That which was not right was the configuration----the combination of serial number, barrel roll marks, the barrel itself (long strap), the long cylinder, and one thing and another----which I should have noticed (and probably did-----and was quick to rationalize----because it was so pretty.)

So I studied the books----and asked around. The folks I asked were quick to rationalize---just like I was. So I sent the gun off to Chicoine---and then to Jinks. Neither one of them was quick to rationalize anything---and said the same thing David did----It's not right.

In a nutshell: An older frame had been married up with a later barrel and cylinder----both ostensibly new/from the Parts Department (because they had no numbers on them when the process started. The fact they had no numbers on them was no problem, because numbers were put on them. All the typical number places had numbers. Chicoine noted (among myriad other anomalies) the numbers didn't look like any of the numbers he had in hand at the time. Jinks was more to the point----he said the numbers were not those in use by S&W at the time of the gun. I too had noticed the numbers (especially the 6's and 9's), and was quick to consider there were several S&W folks stamping numbers----and they very likely each used their own set of stamps. (You see how easy it is to explain these seeming anomalies? Don't do it!!)

Then all the bits and pieces were prepared for finishing----and finished----by an EXPERT. Both my experts were quick to compliment the skill of the craftsmen----suggesting it may very well have been a S&W employee----working "off the books".

I have earlier stated it (the project) was done to deceive. That's my conclusion based on the fact the several (improper) pieces had been numbered.

That's essentially the end of it.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 12-07-2015, 09:43 AM
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How does that work? There is some obvious line jumping going on.
I take exception to your assumption of "line jumping". Have helped Mr. Jinks with letters, I know how he does letters. I'll not go into details, but rest assured, there is no "line jumping" going on.
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Old 12-07-2015, 02:51 PM
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I too, over the years, have encounter S&Ws that at first glance appeared to be very rare exceptions to the accepted norm for the model, but upon very carefully examination began to unravel as to their authenticity. The craftsmanship was masterful and I have always leaned to their origin being S&W employees making guns for their personal, or a friend's, uses, as it is known that the factory allowed that practice. Ed.
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Old 12-07-2015, 07:13 PM
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I take exception to your assumption of "line jumping". Have helped Mr. Jinks with letters, I know how he does letters. I'll not go into details, but rest assured, there is no "line jumping" going on.
Isn't it GREAT that we have the services of Mr Jinks, and at a far lesser cost than other manufacturers charge? When one is waiting 4 to 5 months to get a letter, does it really matter if you had to wait 135 days to get a letter and someone else 125? I do not know for sure, but maybe Mr Jinks letters similar firearms all at one time for ease of accessing records. If you have a Smith & Wesson New Model No 3 that needs lettering, as do several others, it may make more sense to do all of them at once, and maybe this is slightly later than a group of Smith & Wessons that were produced in the mid-1980's? I am sorry some out there are concerned with line jumping. Be patient...in time, your letter shall arrive.
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