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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 02-01-2016, 01:38 PM
VAPA VAPA is offline
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Default 22 Single Shot Target Pistol

I found a very unique to me S&W 22 top break 10" target pistol on a lgs today, the gun is in great condition, no box, they are asking $700 for it. I see in another post some model differences which I will confirm. Is this a good price?
Thanks
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:16 PM
opoefc opoefc is offline
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I think most of us would be a buyer in that situation, but I would start the dance with an offer of $500. Ed.
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:42 PM
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I believe so! I would buy it at that price.
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Old 02-01-2016, 04:13 PM
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Can you tell me more about this gun, I never saw one before?
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Old 02-01-2016, 05:41 PM
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We can tell you virtually everything about the gun---very shortly after we learn what it is. (There are three different models of S&W top-break target pistols. The first is built upon a single action revolver frame, and is typically found with the recoil shields intact---big visual clue there. The second is built upon the same revolver frame, and is never found with the recoil shields intact. The third is also built on a revolver frame---a double action----another big visual clue there.)

Your move!

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 02-02-2016, 11:10 AM
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Thanks for the info, I know what to look for when I go back.
Please confirm that this a rare & very collectable model?
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Old 02-02-2016, 11:49 AM
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There were 3 models of 22 Singla Shot Pistols.

1st Model - 28,107*
2nd Model - 4617*
3rd Model - 7023*
(*based on Roy Jinks production figures)

With those numbers, none are rare, but they are certainly collectible. Value is all about condition. If pristine, take it home. If it has an Olympic or Pope barrel, take it home. Lesser condition guns have recently sold for $500 and higher condition models go for $800 plus, so that might give you a range of value to work with.
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Last edited by glowe; 02-02-2016 at 02:48 PM. Reason: changed comment
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Old 02-02-2016, 12:02 PM
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"Pope Barrel", as in Harry Pope? When you get time I would like to hear more.
Thank you Sir!
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Old 02-02-2016, 01:26 PM
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Mr. Lowe's comment ("--------high condition models go for $800 plus----."), while entirely accurate, might be a little misleading. High condition models go for several thousand dollars---depending.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 02-02-2016, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowe View Post
There were 3 models of 22 Singla Shot Pistols.

1st Model - 28,107
2nd Model - 4617
3rd Model - 9023

With those numbers, none are rare, but they are certainly collectible. Value is all about condition. If pristine, take it home. If it has an Olympic or Pope barrel, take it home. Lesser condition guns have recently sold for $500 and high condition models go for $800 plus, so that might give you a range of value to work with.
Speaking of misleading-----------------------

While 1st Model SS's could have a serial number as high as 28107, there were maybe 1,500 of them produced (in all three calibers).

And there were, in fact, 4,617 2nd Models.

And the total production of 3rd Models was 6,949.

And just for the heck of it, there were 1,870 Straight Lines-----which are not "top-breaks"----"side-breaks" maybe.

Ralph Tremaine

And just for the heck of it again, that "maybe 1,500 of them produced" (referring to 1st Models) is a not necessarily educated guess. At the time N&J was (last?) published/revised (1975?), there were 1,251 KNOWN 1st Models (in all three calibers)---and the serial numbers for all of them are in the book. Since then, 1st Models NOT listed in the book have been popping up on a fairly regular basis---seemingly all .22's. I have three .22 1st Models. NONE of them are in the book. As an aside, I have one .32 1st Model. It IS in the book---as a .22----and it letters as a .22----a story you don't want to hear. MY "not necessarily educated guess" of 1,500 1st Models produced supposes the original records showing 230 .32's and 160 .38's are pretty close to dead-on-----------and the 862 units showing for the .22's is off by----a bunch. (Do the math.) My guess is based upon the fact the .22's which have been popping up since the list was made are virtually all numbered higher than any shown in the book.

Bottom Line: The book was dead-on in accord with the factory records known/available at the time. More records have surfaced since.

Last edited by rct269; 02-02-2016 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 02-02-2016, 02:43 PM
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You are absolutely correct Ralph. I meant to say "higher", but even that leaves some room for interpretation. I think an 80% "standard" 10" barreled SS would go for $800 or more. I have seen them sell for over $2000 recently and am sure there are much higher numbers out there. Calculator issue on numbers produced. I do, however, get 7023, not 9023, Third Models using Roy's numbers. (4618-11,641)

H.M. Pope stamped barrels show up on 1st & 2nd Models, but not sure about Third Models. The ones I have seen are stamped on the bottom of the barrel, but may well be found in other locations. Ralph has some information on Pope's work in the following post.

H M Pope barreled Model of 91 S.S.

The Pope barrel was probably mostly of interest to dedicated competitive shooters, so not many exist.
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Old 02-02-2016, 03:40 PM
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The trouble with Roy's numbers is sometimes he has other numbers in other places. In this case, the last paragraph in the 3rd Model portion of N&J (Revised Edition) reads like so: "There was a skip of 75 numbers from 9442 to 9518, probably due to an error in stamping during manufacture. Total production was therefore 6,949."

Ralph Tremaine

And yes, there are Pope barrels on 3rd Models----one at least. There is a recent thread in this forum--someone has a rather spiffy 3rd Model (In the box, yet!)---and there on the barrel, big as life------H.M. POPE.

I about wet my pants!!

Well, I lied----again! The "recent thread in this forum" is titled something along the lines of "3rd Model Single Shot with messed up barrel". That's not the one "(In the box, yet!)". However, that which is "messed up" about the barrel is some clod stamped "H.M. POPE" on it. It should be noted the author of this "messed up" barrel thread has a sense of humor which is easily as sick as mine!!

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Old 02-04-2016, 04:03 PM
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Armed with all of this info I go back to the LGS today to look at the pistol closer only to find out it is selling for $1,700 not $700 as I thought.
It does not have the recoil shields so it is either a 2nd or 3rd model.
No matter what it is out of my price range.
Thank you for the education.
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Old 02-04-2016, 05:04 PM
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Sorry to hear that, keep looking and one day you will find her. I would suggest trying to talk the dealer down or at least make an offer and leave your card.
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Old 02-04-2016, 06:17 PM
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Just to clarify a point: As I noted earlier, 1st Models are "typically" found with recoil shields. They are also found without recoil shields. Those without recoil shields appear (to the casual observer) to be 2nd Models. They are 1st Models by virtue of "two pin" frames AND serial numbers outside the 2nd Model range-----TYPICALLY over 20000 (BUT not always). And just to mess with our minds some more, there are guns visually identical to these 1st Models ("two pin" frames)----but numbered within the 2nd Model range------------------and they are 2nd Models.

And finally, whatever this mystery $1,700 SS is, it could very well be a screaming bargain.(!!)

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
Just to clarify a point: As I noted earlier, 1st Models are "typically" found with recoil shields. They are also found without recoil shields.

Ralph Tremaine
I assume there is at least one other possibility. When a new model comes out, and you still have the old model, the temptation to make it look like a new model must have been the reason for at least some recoil shields to be removed. It would be a relatively simple matter for a gunsmith to perform and a nice new bluing job back in the period would have been pretty easy.
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Old 02-04-2016, 08:47 PM
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An easy rule of thumb to differentiate is; 1st Model has recoil shields, 2nd model is no recoil shield but single action only, 3rd model is double action capability.
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Old 02-05-2016, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VAPA View Post
Armed with all of this info I go back to the LGS today to look at the pistol closer only to find out it is selling for $1,700 not $700 as I thought.
It does not have the recoil shields so it is either a 2nd or 3rd model.
No matter what it is out of my price range.
Thank you for the education.
Ha! I know that feeling. Looking at stuff at gun shows and seeing something with a sloppily written dollar sign and thinking "Hmmm, $550 might be a pretty good bargain. Oh - it's $1550. Is he on crack?!"
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Old 02-17-2016, 07:58 PM
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In 2008, I paid
$1600 for this near perfect 3rd model (?). No box.
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Old 02-17-2016, 08:14 PM
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She is beautiful, thanks for sharing. How does she shoot?

Last edited by Ed Fowler; 02-17-2016 at 08:15 PM.
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