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Old 02-29-2016, 07:17 AM
ETMJR ETMJR is offline
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Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder.  
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Default Transition from black powder to smokeless powder.

When (year) did Smith and Wesson make the design switch from black powder cartridges to smokeless powder cartridges?
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:16 AM
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Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder.  
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Good question. There were company references that noted the change, but probably the biggest physical change occurred with the introduction of solid frame hand ejector revolvers. Of course there are exceptions even to that rule. The Model 1896 came out just as SP was being introduced and it may have been designed with the expectation of SP introduction to the market, but clearly came out when BP ws the rule. The Model 1899 took a black powder cartridge and introduced the 38 Special that became one of the first SP cartridges accepted by the US Military. I am sure that both these vintage models still saw the use lots of BP ammo.

There were no engineering changes to the top-breaks, and the company at first objected to the use of smokeless powders and then accepted it without any changes made to those models. There are boxes floating around and catalogs stating objections to using "nitro" powders.

From a 1900 S&W catalog, there is a discussion on SP and it acknowledges the military moving to smokeless. The company advised against the use of reloaded black powder, but also states "we do not wish to detract in any way from its merits or discourage the use of properly loaded smokeless powder."

You cannot go by when BP ammunition left the market, because it was still being manufactured just prior to WWII and some calibers were still around after the war as well.
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Last edited by glowe; 02-29-2016 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 02-29-2016, 10:42 AM
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Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder. Transition from black powder to smokeless powder.  
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The .32 S&W Long, the .38 Special and the .44 Special were all designed as BP cartridges. There was no need for longer cases except to accommodate larger charges of BP. Dense smokeless powder was already available, so the higher velocities were possible without a longer case. The early warnings about reloading with smokeless were due to the fact that there were two different types available, dense and bulk, and reloaders didn't understand the difference. It was too easy to get an overload condition with dense powders.
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Old 03-02-2016, 01:59 AM
Driftwood Johnson Driftwood Johnson is offline
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Howdy

Yes, it is a good question and there is no definitive answer.

With Colt it is easy. 1900 is the year that Colt first factory warrantied their revolvers to be safe to shoot with ammunition loaded with Smokeless powder. Colt had been steadily improving the quality of their steel and by 1900 felt confident that their revolvers could be fired with Smokeless powder.

Soon after 1900 Colt began marking the letters VP for Verified Proof in an upside down triangle on the left front side of the trigger guard to indicate their revolvers were safe to fire with Smokeless ammunition.




There is no reason to suspect that Colt had access to steel that was any better than Smith & Wesson could obtain, but here is a quote from a catalog from about 1900. "While we do not guarantee our Revolvers when used with smokeless powder, and strongly advise against reloaded ammunition, we do not wish to detract in any way from its merits or discourage the use of properly loaded smokeless cartridges."

By the catalog of 1905-1906 they had changed their tune slightly. "Cartridges in which smokeless powder is used are made by leading manufacturers, and they posses valuable qualities not found in black powder ammunition. They do excellent work in our revolvers, and while we do not guarantee our arms when smokeless powder is used, and strongly advise against reloaded ammunition, we have no desire to detract from its merits or discourage its use when properly handled".

So it sounds to me that by 1905 what S&W was saying was go ahead and use smokeless ammunition in our revolvers, but if it blows up we will not compensate you for it.
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Old 03-02-2016, 11:08 AM
Jim Watson Jim Watson is offline
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There is a lot of modern discussion of "black powder guns," when were guns "rated" for smokeless, and what should we use in an old gun we want to shoot?

But in the day, it was a much simpler matter.
Do I want cleaner shooting or lower cost?
In 1901 .38 S&W black powder was $.48 a box, smokeless $.64.
$.16 a box of shells mattered when the gun cost $11.75 for a S&W or $4.00 for a H&R.
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