Need help with top-break ID and history!

ponderosa pine · #1 05-22-2016, 11:01 PM

Hello, as luck would have it I bought my first S&W this weekend at a gun show and its an old top break for $150. I've been doing a bit of research and found a few things...first i think its a model 1.5 issue 2 but not certain. The serial number on the grip is not accessible without ruining the current grip, another poster noticed that the number on the grip was the same as the number on the cylinder. If that is the case, mine is 14XXX. it is a .32 caliber, .32 s and w if I'm not mistaken?
Id like to know if the model is correct, if the round is correct, what these guns were used for primarily, year it was produced, if its a reproduction, if it has any value, and any other useful information about it!

deadin · #2 05-22-2016, 11:39 PM

Yes, it is in .32 S&W and is a .32 Double Action 2nd Model (Not a 1 1/2. They were spur trigger single actions.)
The 32 DA was made from 1880 -1882 in a serial range of 31-22,172

deadin · #3 05-22-2016, 11:50 PM

On taking a closer look at your pictures, I see several problems with your .32. First, as you already pointed out, the grips are not original. Next, the front sight retaining pin looks like an oversized replacement and, finally, that big honking screw head in the middle of the right side of the frame is definitely not original. The hammer stud (pivot) should be threaded into the frame from the inside. Probably broke the original stud and had to drill it out and remounted it with an external screw.

added: Now that I have compared the two pictures, I'm wondering if your picture is reversed (mirror image) as all of the screw heads seem to be on the wrong side. They appear to be on the right side of the frame and should be on the left.
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Here's a picture of what it should look like:

deadin · #4 05-23-2016, 12:08 AM

Now I'm really confused.... If you picture is a mirror image and what seems like the right side of the frame is actually the left side, there should be a sideplate that I see no sign of.... so I'm back to my original assessment, some kind of a "repair job".
Or, maybe, because the hammer spur doesn't look quite right, it's not a S&W in the first place. What are the markings on the top of the barrel??

Here's a picture of the other side showing the side plate:

ponderosa pine · #5 05-23-2016, 12:10 AM

Thanks for the input! I included a picture of the right side for comparison. I was just hoping that most of it was original, I was concerned that the trigger assembly wasn't original as well. Mostly I was excited to have an over hundred year old gun that would fire. Do you shoot yours often or at all?

ponderosa pine · #6 05-23-2016, 12:16 AM

Markings on top: smith and wesson Springfield mass. usa. pat'd jan. 17 and 24. 65, july. 11, 65 aug. 24. 69, feb 20 1677. reissue july 25, 1871.
right: pat'd apr 20, 75
left: dec 18, 1877

deadin · #7 05-23-2016, 03:46 PM

Those are the standard barrel markings for a 32DA 2nd Model except the two 16xx dates should read as 18xx.

I'm still mystified as to just how your pictures are reversed. Did you copy them from a slide or film?

As for shooting mine, I still haven't found any ammo.......

Playing around in Photoshop I've finally figured it out! Somehow the image has been flipped horizontally.
(I didn't know you could do that!!)

ponderosa pine · #8 05-23-2016, 10:35 PM

the 16 was a typo, i used my laptop camera and just angled it down towards my desk :-)

glowe · #9 05-24-2016, 08:47 AM

Welcome to the Forum. That frame certainly looks like it could be a 1st Model?? If you could tell us the shape of the sideplate on the left side of the frame, because it looks like a straight cut sideplate?? If so, the serial number would be way too high. Did you take the number off the bottom of the butt frame? This is quite important, since there were only 30 made!!! Do those wood stocks cover the butt-frame? If so, they are quite unsightly, so dig out the screw head from the putty filler and remove them to get at the butt serial number.

The pivot pin and screw are installed backwards in the gun. The screw should be on the left side and the oval head pin should be on the right, aligned with the witness marks on the head and another on on the frame.

Please let us know where you got the number and if you can take a close-up of the sideplate.

As for the barrel address lines, the 2nd Model did have a 1880 patent date, but the 1st might have ended at 1877? These are so rare that few collectors have never seen one in person and I have certainly never held one in my hands to inspect.

raljr1 · #10 05-26-2016, 07:46 AM

I generally can find 32 Smith & Wesson ammunition at gun shows sometimes at some older gun shops.

glowe · #11 05-26-2016, 08:53 AM

I hope the owner comes back to add more details and pictures, since the OP may have one of the rarest S&W models ever made. I tried to sharpen the image a little and point out what looks like straight lines barely visible where the 1st Model sideplate would have joined the frame. Also, there appears to be a screw slot in the sideplate which would suggest the picture is not reversed. I also highlighted the suspected reversed pivot pin and screw, which is quite common on these old top-breaks.

I do not know whether the 1st Model had a screw retaining the hammer stud of not. Dean makes a good point about this issue, since all other models simply have a hammer stud screwed into the frame and show only the head of the threaded insert. I also tried to bring out what looks like a witness mark on the right side, but cannot be certain?? Both images are just not clear enough to be sure of anything, so the mystery remains.

Only way to know for sure what the owner has is to wait for a reply.

deadin · #12 05-26-2016, 09:28 AM

Gary,
I'm going to stick with the reversed image theory. I've never owned a 32 DA 1st, but handled one and it appeared to be just a miniature 2nd. Here's a picture of a 38 DA 1st I owned and, as you can see, the sideplate lines are quite obvious....

Then there's always the problem of the serial number on the cylinder which is a 2nd model number. Of course there's always a chance its a parts gun, but I don't think so...

glowe · #13 05-26-2016, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadin

. . . I've never owned a 32 DA 1st, but handled one and it appeared to be just a miniature 2nd.

Dean, You and I are in the same position as most collectors. Your picture is much clearer than the photos the OP has supplied, but I can see no evidence of the round sideplate on the OPs picture?? Obviously, the major difference between the 1st and 2nd is the straight line sideplate cut, and they are a little different than the 38 DA you show. I hope we get an expert that owns one of those few 1st model 32s to comment soon.

deadin · #14 05-26-2016, 09:56 AM

I think what would help would be a little higher resolution pictures. The OP's pics are only 2.67 KB. (That's about right for an avatar) At that level most all fine detail is lost and can't be recovered. (Example: The ones I posted are around 600 KB)

ponderosa pine · #15 05-30-2016, 12:32 AM

Sorry for the delay, it does seem to have a round side plate and the serial is 14xxx on the handle, which matches the cylinder markings. Here are some better pics.

ponderosa pine · #16 05-30-2016, 12:34 AM

It seems like deadin's assumptions are pretty spot on thus far. I don't think this is a model 1...

glowe · #17 05-30-2016, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ponderosa pine

It seems like deadin's assumptions are pretty spot on thus far. I don't think this is a model 1...

Correct. Your second set of pictures are much clearer and show the rounded sideplate. That 32 Double action, 2nd Model would have shipped most likely in 1881. This is a good example of the factory using up leftover parts, since the barrel is clearly a 1st Model, not having the 1880 patent date. Too bad, I was hoping you hit the jackpot.

deadin · #18 05-30-2016, 09:42 AM

Quote:

since the barrel is clearly a 1st Model

I guess the final check should be to make sure the barrel isn't a "parts" piece and does match the rest of the gun.
Below is a picture of where the other serials should be. Unfortunately the picture is from a .44 DA and the numbers are quite easy to see. They will be in the same place on the 32 DA but much, much smaller.
Good lighting and a loupe may be necessary.......

Good Luck!