New member, first time post!


I originally posted the thread below yesterday on another forum and was warmly welcomed. Wiregrassguy recommended I post here as well due to the expertise on this site. He thought I might be able to get more answers to my questions. So here goes.

I inherited this pistol from my Grandfather and only recently had it authenticated by S&W. They confirmed its authenticity and stated that it was a "Special Order Variation" (target variation), was engraved and gold plated in the factory and has genuine mother of pearl grips. They said it was shipped to a Mr. James Conlin in 1892 which, as my research has shown, was quite the marksman and gun gallery owner in the late 1800s and early 1900s who even had a Stevens gun named after him (Stevens-Conlin No. 28 – named for James Conlin, owner of a Broadway Avenue shooting gallery in New York City). Interestingly, it is exactly like the Annie Oakley pistol in the Autry Museum (Autry) with a serial number that is only 79 later than Oakley's--apparently it was the same special order variation. All serial numbers match and it is assessed to be NRA Very Good condition. My appraiser said that it has never been fired judging from the condition of the barrel and the gold in the barrel and cylinders. Although about 40% of the gold plating is missing from the engraved areas and sharp edges, the exposed bare metal is in excellent shape with no rust or pitting.

I continue to do my research on my pistol but cannot seem to find a way to identify who exactly did the engraving. Without the original invoice, I'm missing a lot of the details. I currently have an email out to the Autry museum hoping that they have some of the original paperwork and information on the Oakley weapon as the engraving is pretty much identical, but I'm not sure that they will be able to help me. Short of getting this information from the Autry museum, is there anyway to determine who the engraver was? Did they place initials anywhere? Are there telltale marks of each engraver? Also, are there archives that exist that will help me with my overall research of this weapon's history?

I appreciate any help you can provide. I've posted a picture of the weapon here.

Attached Images

	Left Side.jpg (53.8 KB, 263 views)
	Left Side Scroll.jpg (102.0 KB, 72 views)
	Right Side Scroll 3.jpg (115.9 KB, 65 views)
	Butt Scroll.jpg (43.9 KB, 56 views)
	Top Scroll.jpg (99.3 KB, 63 views)

At the time this gun was shipped (1892) factory engraving of this quality was mostly done in the shop of Gustav Young, by either Gustav himself or one of his sons, Oscar or Eugene. The style shown on the gun is one of the 8 levels of engraving pictured in the S&W Engraving brochures of the period. Very nice gun. Too bad the Gold plating has flaked somewhat, I have several special order gold plated S&Ws of the same period that also show some flaking. Ed.

Kmac, post more pictures of the gun. Let us see all sides and some closeups of the engraving.

Ed, is there any way to ID which of the Youngs might have done the engraving?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Guy, Timing of when a gun was engraved can sometimes help estimate which of the Youngs might have done the gun. Gustave's work up to the late 90s, when compared to his son's, usually shows a higher level of skill. When you get past that time, them you see sometimes a mix of Oscars & Gustav's work on the same gun. Pulls of the Young family's work are known to exist and comparison of engraved guns to those pulls can nail down a gun's engraver. Most of the guns engraved after 1900 were by Oscar. Eugene did only a few guns, apparently, however his engraving skills exceeded those of his brother or father. Ed.

Kmac says the gun was shipped in 1892. So, Gustave was still the primary engraver then, even at his age? He died in 1895.

I have read that Gustave placed a dot on the hammer of his engraved guns for each day it took to do the engraving. Perhaps Kmac can look at the hammer for the dots, or better yet, post some photos of it along with other closeups so we can better see the engraving?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

What a great old gun!

I find it interesting that the grips lack medallions.

Guy, Gustave engraved till he died. I've never heard that about the dots.
That looks like Gustave's cuts to me.

kmac, more pics would be great to see!

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

kmac,
I forgot to ask what caliber it is???
I assume it is 44 Russian.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

That is Gustave's work, no doubt about it in my book. As to the non-medallion pearl grips, they are correct (and also no doubt) original for an 1892-production gun. The gold-medallion type doesn't appear in the grip product line until sometime in 1893, but they are few and far between early-on and most GM pearl-equipped S&W's are generally of much later mfg.


An extremely cool and very rare gun - congratulations !!

DC

Lee, the reference to "dots" is attributed to Kevin Hogan of Rock Island Auction Company. Apparently 7 dots on a fully engraved Honeymoon 1851 Navy is the highest known level of effort (over 70 hours). I have read the Blog at RIA on Gustave and they call it the engraving coverage which makes sense since LOE is synonymous with amount of coverage. The only pictures I can find that show them are of the Colts. The dots are placed across the bridge of the hammer tang. I can send you links to the reference sites if you prefer them not to be posted.

Kmac, you have now received confirmation from two real experts. Congratulations!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

BTW, I vote that we invite Mr. Kmac to the SWCA Symposium next June. I would love to see this gun in person.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

First off, thanks for all the great information! Second, I will post many more high quality pics this week of the entire gun. I took the one I posted and have many more. Finally, I have to say, this is the most informative and friendly forums I've ever joined! Look forward to working with you all.

Yes, 44 Russian

As requested, I've attached better quality pictures of the pistol and all engravings.

Attached Images

	Left Side Scroll 2.jpg (126.0 KB, 61 views)
	Right Side Scroll 3.jpg (115.9 KB, 68 views)
	SN on Butt.jpg (67.5 KB, 67 views)
	Top of Barrel Engraving.jpg (62.7 KB, 62 views)
	Top Handle Scroll.jpg (75.9 KB, 62 views)

Beautiful, Kirk...just beautiful!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Your gun is in the serial number range of a known group of factory engraved NM # 3's, the upper-27,000 - lower 28,000 range. A number of the engraved guns in this range were done for famous shooters of the day and folks with close ties to the Wesson family and the factory. James Conlin and his "Conlin's Shooting Gallery" in NYC, premiere names among the shooting world in the late 19th Century, would most certainly be among that group on anyone's list.

As to the engraver, the work could POSSIBLY be that of Oscar Young, eldest son of Gustave, who was able to very closely replicate his father's tight scrolls. However, it looks more like Gus' hand to me.....

A great gun !!
David

David, I don't see the characteristics dots across the bridge of the Hammer Tang that has been attributed to Gustave. Do you know if he only did that on the Colts?

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Looking at Annie Oakley's gun under a magnifying glass from the back page of Wilson's book "the Peacemakers", the engraving is identical on the left frame with slight differences in the little areas. In another words, probably close enough to have been done by the same Young. And her pearls didn't have medallions either.

The time-dots are found mostly on the percussion Colt hammers, Guy. The S&W's that are dotted on the hammer spine are few and far between.

DC

Different Wesson, but I thought I would show it because of the Conlin thread:




Bob