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Old 07-20-2016, 12:15 AM
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Default Model 1891 Authenticity

Hello experts,

I recently purchased a model 1891 Mexican model from a reputable auction. It was listed as a scarce Mexican model with target sight and no half cock notch. The revolver arrived and had the features as described. It had a bit more wear than I was expecting but am happy with the purchase. All serial numbers match on the barrel, barrel latch, and bottom of the gun.

Next step was to request a letter from Smith and Wesson to authenticate the features of the revolver. Just received the letter today and it stated "This revolver serial number 4758 was shipped from the factory on June 16, 1891 and delivered to M. W. Robinson Co., New York City. This shipment was part of a very large shipment of various models and no information was listed on the individual revolvers shipped. It is doubtful that the spur trigger and target sights were available for this early of shipment."

I have 2 questions right now. The first is how can I tell if the hammer is from a real Mexican model? The second about the rear sight. Was that style offered by the factory on the 1891 model or did a gunsmith add it to the latch.

Thanks
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:05 AM
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Hammer: Both the hammer and the spur should be the same width (.255")----as opposed to the Model of '91 (.38 SA 3rd) spur, which is .350". How can you tell if it's real? Good question! My answer is you can't. It strikes me as relative child's play to fashion a Mexican hammer from that from a .38 SA 3rd/1st/2nd SS-----if the child was inclined to deceive.

Rear Sight: My knee-jerk reaction to the sight is it's as bogus as a three dollar bill. The rear sight should be the same as that found on the 1st/2nd SS. (Same as those on any/all top break targets since the get-go (NM #3)---aside from size which varies with frame size.) And while I was about to note there are A BUNCH of lower numbered 1st Model SS's (ALL with target sights) in N&J, a second look at your shipping date says your letter is right about the availability of target sights in 1891-------and the SS pistols came to be in 1893---and I don't know when the SS barrels (only) came into being. It's worth noting there is no mention of target sights being available on guns of this frame size before the Model of '91 (and its children). Bottom Line: The fellow who signed your letter has forgotten more than I know about this topic and several other topics about which I am sometimes tempted to argue----but find my time is better spent going back to the books.

The rear sight on this gun bears no resemblance whatsoever to the correct sight. The correct sight is adjustable for elevation via a (very) small screw (accessible from the underside of the latch). It is also adjustable (more like movable) for windage by loosening two (very very) small screws on the back side (which hold a clamping plate against the blade). I collect only target guns, and have never seen (or at least paid any attention to) the standard/non-target latch. And now that I've looked in THE book, it appears someone has fashioned and installed your rear blade in a standard latch. That being the case, it will not be adjustable for elevation---and might be be movable for windage----with a hammer.

Ralph Tremaine

And to pick a nit about "reputable" auction houses, I'll grant you there are several well known auction houses. There may even be some which are usually/normally honest, but to count on their knowledge/expertise when spending your money is to invite disappointment-----if not disaster! And the more rare the item in question, the scarier it gets. I know this because I've been there and done that----and learned to measure twice and cut once the hard way.(!!)

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Old 07-20-2016, 08:49 AM
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I reviewed that revolver while it was up for auction recently, but decided it was not for me. Ralph gave you a very good assessment of your revolver. I, however, think the spur trigger on the revolver is original and most likely this gun was part of reported shipments to Mexico, Russia, and South America. Apparently there have been no records found to detail where the reported 2000 revolvers went, but your letter supports the idea that there were large shipments to one or several countries made through S&Ws main distributor.

It is easy to change the front sight and I agree the rear sight was inserted in a slot made in the top of the latch. I have a Model 1891 with that same conversion. Everything else points to an original scarce 38 SA Mexican Model but the alterations, even though small, negatively affect the value of the gun. After all, the latches of all top-break S&Ws are numbered to the gun and it would be hard to repair the latch to original. It also looks as if the original rear sight was ground off.
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:51 AM
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Given Gary's opinion this gun is for real (a Mexican Model), that's another thing I'm not inclined to argue about. That being the case, you can go right on being happy with your purchase----aside from the fact it's not what the auction said it was (no surprise there). It's simply a Mexican Model which has been modified to suit the tastes of a prior owner----or messed with---depending upon your point of view.

My very first scary gun buy was (coincidentally) also a Model of '91 Target-------------with an unnumbered latch/sight. I fussed and fumed---and bought it anyway. Then I waited for the letter---all the while wondering about how I might best kill myself if it was a bogus gun. The letter arrives. It was for real------- shipped as a target gun. (There IS a God!!) Jinks opined an order was received for a 6" Model of 91 Target. They didn't have one. Given their options of declining the order or making one, they made one. They snatched a standard 6" revolver from inventory, took it to the Service Department, and said, "Make me a target gun." The Service folks obliged. Given they were working with only one gun, there was no need to number the latch/sight---so they didn't.

I was a happy camper----still am. You can be too.

As an aside, they most certainly had spur triggers at the time of your gun----the previous models are spur trigger guns---almost certainly the same spur trigger to subsequently be used on the Model of '91.

Ralph Tremaine

And having now looked in THE book again, the pins (trigger hinge and cylinder stop hinge) are in different locations on the earlier models (.38 SA 1st/2nd)-----------------------------so-------------maybe the spur trigger on the 3rd ISN'T the same as that on the 1st/2nd.(??) The hurrieder I go the behinder I get!!

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Old 07-20-2016, 12:45 PM
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Ralph, I believe your observations were correct on the placement of the pins. The Mexican Model should have the same pin locations as the Model 1891, since the spur trigger mechanism was fitted into a frame manufactured to receive a trigger and trigger guard as was the case with the standard Model of 1891. The Mexican Model spur housing was not cast integral with the frame as was the 1st & 2nd Models, so design and pin placement was different on the earlier models.
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Old 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM
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The pin placement on Boulder's Mexican IS the same as on a Model of '91---------my point was his letter may be (very likely is) correct in casting doubt on the availability of the spur trigger (for the '91) at the time of his gun (as it did with the target sights). All of which is to say we're right back where we started with Boulder ostensibly halfway thinking he has a "put together" gun-----and with me (somewhat more than halfway) now agreeing with him (as I was in the beginning)----more's the pity!

So, Mr. Ed where are you----now that we so desperately need you?!!

Ralph Tremaine

And just to now go back and cast doubt on the letter (again), THE book says the Mexican Model WAS available in 1891----and we shall refrain from mentioning THE book noted herein was written by the same fellow who wrote THE letter---although the book was written a looooooooooooooong time before the letter----and time passes and things change (most especially things we thought we knew about before we knew MORE about the things we thought we knew about). Got all that??!!!!

A note to Boulder: Do yourself (and especially us) a favor. Buy a common, ordinary, everyday gun next time.

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Old 07-20-2016, 03:22 PM
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My guess is the gun is an original Mexican Model, but the target conversion is after market. I've never seen a factory target Mexican model. 91s, yes, Mexican no. Bulk shipments to distributors by S&W often lack the info. needed for Roy to send a definitive letter on a specific gun in the bulk shipment. Wolf & Klar shipments have this problem, even worse the MWR., etc. Auction houses all lack people that know much of anything about S&Ws. When I assign collections to auctions I specify that with I write the catalog description or have the right to proof read theirs before publication. Some house call me anyway on high value S&Ws as I have saved them from selling clever fakes as genuine in the past. If you want your guns described correctly for auction, sell them through David Carroll.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:46 AM
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Thanks for your help guys.

After reading your posts and looking at the gun i can see why you say the sights are not factory, bummer.

The hammer is not flared but straight. It does not have the half cock notch either. Based on those two things and your comments I'm going with its a real Mexican model. Feeling better about the purchase now than when the letter arrived.

Thanks again
Mark
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:18 AM
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Started collecting about a year ago. This was the first Mexican model I've seen for sale in that time. For me it's a good place to start. Have one other model 1891. The letter from Roy said it was a single gun shipment to a hardware store in Kentucky in 1910. It does not have Model of 91 on the barrel, all numbers match, and it's serial number is 26,328.
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Old 07-23-2016, 11:11 AM
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"Started collecting about a year ago." (??!!!!) You have GOOD mojo! I started some before you did---about 60 years ago. Given that this is a for real Mexican, it's the first I have ever seen (outside of the books). My good friend, the late John Watts, bought one at SWCA Dallas (quite a while ago)----an obvious "put together" gun----but super spiffy----$3,800.(!!) Guns of this sort are not my thing, but I couldn't believe he'd pay that for a "frankengun". He was happy, so----------------! When the letter arrived, he got unhappy----because the frame started life as a 1st Model single shot. Try as I might, I haven't figured that one out yet----a "frankengun" is a "frankengun" is a "frankengun"--never mind where the pieces came from.

Given the barrel on your other Model of '91 is numbered to the gun, don't worry about it not having "Model of '91" on the barrel. My one and only (the 6" Target noted earlier) doesn't have the typical address either----just the one liner. A wise man (Mr. Ed) explained all this to me many years ago when I had my knickers in a knot about the barrel address: "The other die was probably broken that day." Worked for me!!

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 07-23-2016, 03:37 PM
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Here is a .38 SA Third Model, Model 1891, Mexican Model that letters as one of the original Mexican Models shipped to Max Fielder in St. Petersburg, Russia on October 17. 1899. Serial Number 18691, all parts including right grip are numbered 18691.
Dave
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File Type: jpg PICT0014.jpg (57.8 KB, 115 views)
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Old 08-08-2016, 02:33 AM
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Doing a little more research on the rear sight on my Mexican model. Glowe posted earlier he had the same rear sight conversion on his model 1891. Found a picture while cruzin this site of a double action top break revolver that member modelof1891 has. Found the attached pic off the web of the same rear sight I have. Wonder if it was a factory option, or you cold send the gun in to smith and wesson to have it retro fitted, or if smith and wesson sold that rear blade for a gunsmith to attach.
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Old 08-08-2016, 09:21 AM
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I have seen this style before, where the rear sight is keyed into the latch, but offers no elevation adjustments, only tapping it right or left. My 1900 S&W catalog shows details of a factory rear target sight and it offers both elevation and windage adjustments. I have never seen a rear sight shown in any catalogs of the era with a rear sight like yours and would question if the factory would have even had ever made a target sight without elevation adjustments??

We may have forgotten to have you check the bottom of the latch for a serial number? If it matches, you have an original latch.

Maybe others can comment on whether the factory would have offered such a rear sight or factory alteration??
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Old 08-08-2016, 04:33 PM
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Actually, the factory did make a target sight (sort of) which is not adjustable for elevation-----drift adjustable only for windage (in accord for the rules of a match in England (Bisley maybe?). I believe it appears on some Triplelocks (at least).

Then they made one which was adjustable for elevation, but not for windage. It appears on very early NM #3 Targets (in .32-44 S&W)---and it doesn't appear very often.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 08-08-2016, 10:04 PM
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The serial numbers on my gun match on the bottom of the gun, the barrel, the cylinder, and the latch.

Below is a copy of the text from a "for sale" listing of a sold gun referred to in a previous post. The 2 pictures with black grips are from that listing and have the rear sight like mine. The serial number for that gun is 1972.

"This is a rare example of the Smith and Wesson Model 1891 Target Revolver. Caliber is .38 S&W. Features include original blued finish, extra wide target hammer, single action trigger mechanism, target grips, and 6" barrel. Low serial number below 2,000. Numbers are matching on the frame, latch, and cylinder. The barrel is not numbered but it's blued and the wear is consistent with the gun indicating it's been on the gun since it was virtually new. Our best guess is that this revolver started out as a somewhat mundane Model 1891 revolver but that the owner ordered the extra length barrel for target shooting. The blue on the straps is very strong indicating that the special target grips were on this gun when new or installed very soon thereafter. They even installed a S&W target blade rear sight on top of the barrel latch. Since many 1891's were sold as single shot target pistols, it must have been fairly common for the Model 1891 revolver to have target features added."

The picture with the pearl grips is a close up of my rear sight. there is no star after my serial number on the bottom of the gun but there is a small 7 under the grips on the right side of the frame.

Mark
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Old 08-08-2016, 11:11 PM
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The rear sight blade shown in the photo is that from the ADJUSTABLE sight found on the 1st/2nd Model Single Shot pistols---also on the Model of '91 revolver---and any and all other revolvers of that frame size (those offering adjustable sights)---installed backwards. We are often warned to never say never when it comes to what S&W did/didn't/could/couldn't do------but. The sight assembly shown in the photo was NEVER offered as an option by S&W. Did S&W perform the modification? They certainly could have, but why would ANYONE pay them to do so when they could very likely buy the complete latch/adjustable sight assembly from the Parts Department for a lesser cost-----and install it in two or three minutes---unless they were in a hurry?

Ralph Tremaine

"-----------------it must have been fairly common for the model of '91 revolver to have target features added." I don't know what that means. If it means added in/by the aftermarket, I have no way to objectively comment on it. If it means added by the factory, I'll suggest it is incorrect. Target models within the Model of '91 series of revolvers are few and far between. I count myself extremely fortunate to have one-----and it wasn't born that way---the first time around. It came to me with an unnumbered latch---but lettered as a target model. It got that way in the Service Department. They snatched a standard gun from inventory, and put target sights on it. Given their work was on only one gun, there was no need to number the latch---so they didn't.

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Old 08-09-2016, 09:27 AM
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Mark, I have a lettered target 38 Single Action, 3rd Model revolver. Here are a few pictures of a factory rear sight for comparison.
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Old 08-22-2016, 04:30 PM
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Default Rear Sight on a .38 DA like on your Mexican Model

Boulder 350

The same type sight is on this .38 DA as on your Mexican Model.

Terry Wagner
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Old 08-25-2016, 08:46 AM
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Terry

Thanks for sharing your picture. Do you know if there any marks on the frame indicating it may have been sent back to the factory to have work done?

The only extra mark I can find on mine is a 7 on the right side of the frame under the grip. Don't know why it's there or what it stands for.

Mark
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:26 PM
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Likely nothing more than a fitter's or inspector's mark. Mine has a B (for blue), and an F---also likely (another) fitter or inspector---probably fitters in both cases.

All this not so scientific guessing arises from a couple of suppositions: 1. There were more than one fitter. 2. There was one inspector. Both fitters and inspectors were paid by the piece. Given more than one fitter, it was necessary to keep track of each one's work----hence a fitter's mark. Given but one inspector, it was only necessary to count the day's production.

And there you have it----------------------maybe.

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:14 PM
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Default 1891 Mexican Model

Boulder350,

If it helps to know, one of my Mexican 1891 (3393) was sent to M.W. Robinson as a sample. This serial number is a few less than your (4758). I don't have the letter with me today but I will be glad to add the shipping date later. Maybe this will help in seeing if the parts were available when your gun was built.

****************Shipped 12-26-1891**************
Terry Wagner

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Old 10-21-2016, 06:32 PM
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Just a little aside here while the Brains Trust is in town;

The Standard Model of 1891 ( .38 S&W, Trigger Guard - Fixed Sight)
Sold from 1891 to 1911.

Are these all antiques in the eyes of BAFTA?

If not, does anyone know the cut off Serial No?
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Old 10-24-2016, 09:00 PM
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Modelof1891,

Thanks for your help. Interested to see when yours shipped. Just requested 3 additional letters for other single action Smiths. Another 1891 not listed above, a new model 3 frontier, and a new model 3 target. They are pretty cool revolvers.

Mark
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Old 10-24-2016, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sw44russ View Post
The Standard Model of 1891 ( .38 S&W, Trigger Guard - Fixed Sight)
Sold from 1891 to 1911.
Smith and Wesson Model of 1891, all are pre-1899: Pre-1899 Firearms FAQ
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Old 10-25-2016, 07:53 AM
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Boulder350

The serial number 3393 was shipped 12-26-1891 as a sample! It has the correct trigger and hammer for the Mexican model. Also has a lanyard loop installed in the middle of the serial number on the butt. The serial number is also listed on the frame front strap under the left grip.

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Old 10-27-2016, 04:33 PM
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Modelof1891,

Went back to my letter and it shipped June 16, 1891, months before yours. That may be the reason the letter stated "it's doubtful that the spur trigger and target sights were available for this early of shipment."

Thanks for your help.

Mark
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