...does there appear to be a renewed interest in pre-1899
S&W revolvers? I like it and hope there is. Im following the old
stuff at shows and gun meetings. I all ways see over plated and buffed New Departures and DA at the the shows. I look at them as a parts or grip gun. If the grips and internals look OK,
I pick them up. Just pick up some springs and pins. I hang them up on the wall in the shop with a tag. Just the thoughts of an old Crum that is frugal. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I haven't noticed a renaissance for the top breaks, Mike. But, we rarely see any around here except at gun shows. I have a commercial Russian that I'd like to restore. Need a lot of screws, but I've never seen one locally.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Unfortunately around here if (rarely) one of these parts guns show up the owner seems to think they have something special and have priced it accordingly.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

It seems that this Forum runs in streaks of high to low posting numbers. Right now, there is more activity than usual. One should note that there are never anywhere near the number of viewers in the Antique section as compared to the Hand Ejector Sections. I do not know why people assume that antique S&Ws are not popular anymore. At gun auction houses, every one sells and they also sell well at gun shows and in gun shops unless the seller is asking too much.

Another observation often discussed is that antiques sell for low prices and, therefore, are not popular. I think that is another misinterpretation of the numbers. First, some of the most expensive S&Ws out there are antiques. It is quite normal to find any high condition version of the Model 3 going for 4 digits. It is also common for high condition Model 1, 1 1/2, and 2 revolvers going for near $1000 and don't even mention what 320 RRs are bringing. The major value problem I see is having way too many low condition guns out there. Given their age, it is no surprise that there are thousands of well used antiques out there that sell for low dollars, but compare prices of antiques to the Model 1903, 1905, etc. and they are pretty much in line.

I would not place a premium on antiques just because they are old. Collectors of antique S&Ws are looking for high condition guns and normally do not buy the "beaters", which is the same as modern gun collectors. The laws of supply and demand work the same for antiques as for modern guns. Few high condition guns remain from over 125 years ago and demand is high, as well as value. There are tons of well worn antiques out there and demand is comparatively low, so value is down.

Lastly, I believe many, if not most, casual buyers out there would not buy an antique because they would not shoot them with smokeless powders, thinking they should be relegated to wall hangers, but that means more for us.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I can agree, I have been trying to up-grade my #1, 3rd Issue for awhile, and any I see that I am interested in seem to go for quite a bit more than I am prepared to pay, up over $500 and many above $600. The antique's are growing in value.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Gary hit it right on the head with "High condition antiques bring good money because there are fewer of them".
Unfortunately I see many beaters (not scarce) that the owner must be comparing to one of the high value ones and pricing based on that.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Hello Gary, agree with you totally. There is just something about having a pre war Colt or S&W that is kinda fun. I once lived in an old house in VA that was built in the !800s. Folk lore has it that it was a gathering spot for John S. Mosby and the Union forces took it over in 1863. I often sat on the porch and could see history in my front yard. As all ways condition in antiques is every thing. But an old rusty pistol found in the smoke house is fun also. Best, Im still looking.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I can tell you the view from my seat. My father started collecting top-break S&W's in the early 1990's. At that time nice specimens were very reasonably priced. He concentrated on mostly Model of 1891's. That soon spilled over into all top breaks and tip-ups. He amassed a wonderful collection before he passed away in 2008. At that time my brother and I inherited his collection. Some common, some rare, and some downright scarce. But all in above average condition. Since then my brother and I took over the reins. We have added many nice pieces to the collection, which has grown to well into triple digits. And yes, while prices have certainly moved upwards, it is still possible to find high condition S&W's at what I consider reasonable prices. That is one reason we can afford to continue collecting without breaking the bank. Compare this to some of the collectors who are snapping up Colts, Winchesters, and S&W Hand Ejectors for astronomical prices. Pythons bringing $2000 + ??? I'd much rather spend several hundred dollars on a near perfect 100+ year old top break that has a rare 6" or 2" barrel. Many times, with some digging and vigilance bargains can still be found out there. I don't know about a resurgence in antique S&W collecting, but high condition always will bring good money, while (as mentioned above) well used pieces bring mediocre money. Most sellers believe that because something is old or antique, it's worth a fortune. Simply ignorance on their part. Just my 2 cents.

WB

I am offering a very rare version of a S&W 1 3/8ths inch bicycle gun.
See picture below……
(A similar one sold at auction for nearly $4000 in 2003.)

This one has a few condition issues, but is still a very rare and desirable gun for an advanced collector.
Currently it does not function, but who is going to shoot such a rare and valuable piece in the first place. A little TLC and a couple replacement parts (hammer spring, hammer fly, hammer stud and mainspring tension screw, mainspring and sideplate cap nut). A good gunsmith should be able to remove the current stud and screw which seem to be frozen in place and are pretty buggered up, but, remember, this is a very rare example and would be well worth spending a little restoration dollars on.
In all fairness I should mention that the barrel, cylinder and frame serials are mismatched (and probably the grips), but because of its rareness these are minor issues.

With one selling for $4000.00 13 years ago, this same gun should be worth thousands more today, so, giving its few problems, I am willing to let this one go for $1,000.00 or equivalent trade.

Please contact me if interested……

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Back in 2014 I picked up this Number One 3rd for $250 OTD at a pawn shop. It lettered to 1874. I was delighted with the purchase. It's been my avatar for some time now. We don't see nice ones around here. . .ever. If it's an antique, it's not likely to show up anymore. I like the parts guns too, but they are few and far between in this area. In the photo is a nice box for an antique 32 and some red mottled grips. Stole them both on EBAY before sellers knew what they were worth.

Attached Images

Number One Series 3 Pic 3.jpg (87.9 KB, 64 views)

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Dr. B

Hello deadin, Im not casting any bad mojo on your SH. But "a few condition issues?" Im afraid your little revolver would be out of my realm of talent.
No insult intended or implied. Wish you the best of luck.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

I believe Dean doth jest.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Man Gary, what a relief. You mean he was pulling my Leg?

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Wow a rare safety hammerless, with the optional hammer and factory ordered without the safety, with a short short barrel!

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

I told you it was rare!!

Tell me you all haven't seen offerings on GB or elsewhere with descriptions like this.... (Except they probably don't list all of the problems...)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I'll be the second or third or fourth in line to buy it but only after it letters to General Sherman. Wow!

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Mike Maher #283

I have a small (read tiny) collection of Antique revolvers. Sadly only one is a Smith, but I am working on rectifying that. I have a 32 Safety Hammerless first model that has been in my family as long as I can remember. The nickel is scratched some, and the firing pin was broken. I found one, repaired the damage caused by the broken part rubbing around inside, and not long ago, was able to actually shoot it. I felt quite accomplished bringing it back to life... The reality is , it is not "valuable", but when compared to the H and R and Forehand arms guns I have it is quite the jewel. I admire the painstaking craftsmanship that went in to building it in the first place...So, now I am looking for more from the era... I swear, I am not addicted!! I am NOT addicted.

Be Careful!! This era can be really dangerous on the wallet!

Don't overlook the Merwin Hulberts if you get a chance at one.
They will match the S&W as far a quality goes....



(Sorry about the S&W grips but you should try to find small frame MH grips.....)

Also... I do believe this is #4,000 in posts....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Dean - congrats on 4000!

I agree, and while I do think S&Ws were designed better, Merwins are of high quality. While I only have one at this present time, I do keep my eye out for them. I would love to have a large frame example, but all good things in time...

Here it is with my Baby Russian and 2nd model 38 SA. Merwin is at top. Its a 38 "medium frame" SA, type II per Flaydermans

The book on these Merwins, The Merwin and Hulbert Story by Phelps is hard to find itself but I lucked into a copy for $20 at a gunshop about a year ago Its crazy how much people want on Amazon for one...



Here it is with its twist open ejection system, compared to a Baby Russian extraction mechanism

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

Jim,
Nice!!
Interesting grips on your MH. I think I've only seen the Dog's Head on H&A guns. Of course MH was made by H&A, so, why not? (Makes me wonder if I could find some small frame H&A panels and would they fit? Would be better than what's on mine now....)

The Phelps book is a good one if you can find one. All I have, other then the standard Flaydermans, etc., is the Vorisek book "50 years of Gunmaking, The Story of Hopkins & Allen, 1867 to 1917" that has a small section on Merwins. The illustrations are pretty bad (they look like old ink-block prints) and the information is spotty, but it's better than nothing.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Most of the guns I see on GB are truly shabby with unreasonable prices. I've been looking for a decent blue baby russian for some time with no success at any price.

ammodave, the blue baby Russians are out there. It took me many years to get mine. It's not pristine but shows character.

To the OP; I think the interest is still with the antiques but the foreign collectors are snapping up the collectible stuff leaving the lessor quality stuff on the table. Meanwhile the U.S. collectors dilly-dally around I think because they seem to want the Dirty Harry stuff.

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Mike Maher #283

...the elusive Merwin & Hulbert...not sure if I've seen one of those before!

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20160812_203826.jpg (88.2 KB, 28 views)

Should you wish to actually shoot your Merwin & Hulbert revolver, black powder ONLY, and then still proceed with care...

NEVER use smokeless powder in any Merwin & Hulbert revolver! - THR

I call BS on the idea that no smokeless load is safe in a M-H revolver. While I admire David Chicoine's talent as a restorer, I don't know of his abilities as a metallurgist or a ballistician. He makes the same warning not to use smokeless powder in any S&W top break, totally ignoring the fact that S&W built top breaks until 1940, fifty years after smokeless ammo became available. So long as pressures are the same, it doesn't make any difference whether the pressure is generated by smokeless or black powder. The cartridges for which the M-H guns were chambered that are still loaded today are loaded to the same pressures as the original BP cartridges. There were exceptions at one time. The .44-40, .38-40 and .32-20 Winchester rounds were available in a high speed loading until about 1960, and those rounds were loaded to much higher pressures than the originals, so shouldn't be fired in revolvers or weak action rifles such as the 1873 Winchester. The damage to the revolver shown above could have been done by one of the high speed rounds or an overload of smokeless in a reload, or a cylinder made from defective steel. Not enough information is given to assign a cause or to make the sweeping comment that no smokeless load should be fired in a M-H revolver.

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Tom
1560

They are out there, but seldom seen. You just have to be ready when the time comes. Although perhaps mine is more indecent, it is an all original gun. Pictured with it are my other baby russians.

Here it is with my 4in baby russian



Family photo with 2nd model

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

I'm not a serious collector. I'd certainly consider a refinished blue baby or a 2nd model if I could find one.

I have concentrated on hand ejectors for the most part simply because I can find them. I am actually going to look at a model 1 2nd issue tonight. I'd love to get some of the older ones into my collection. Just don't see them around much.

Hi Dean
The dogs head Merwin grips on the 38 sa are standard for the model.
I have a pair if near excellent grips for your 32 da (no screw)
P.M. me if you like
Mike