Lucy's new model 3 frontier .44 winchester ctg

Oliversound · #1 08-27-2016, 04:32 PM

Hello, my name is Fabian, 52 years, i live in Uruguay.
My grand grand mother, arrives to Uruguay from england when she was a girl.
Years later, with 26 years she has been widow with 3 kids, in his farm. Her name was Lucy.

My mother allways talked to me about his revolver.
Lucy slept with his revolver under the pillow, and she always bring it with her when moving out of the farm.

So, from one week ago i have it at home, and i was learning what kind of revolver Lucy's uses.

It's a S&W new model 3 DA frontier .44 winchester ctg number 119XX.
It was chome, but now it's rusty.
I remember it whem i was a kid, it shines ( 40 years ago!)
I'll ask for a letter of autenticity, to know more about it.

The revolver is working fine ( at least is what i can see).

I'm very happy to have it, any comments are welcome!

Anyway i have some specifics doubts:

1. Confirm if it's a new model 3 frontier.

2. The barrel has a little rotational movement when not armed, but once armed it stays firm.
The barrel has a front to back movement of less than 1mm, un armed and less when armed but it moves a bit.

2. to know if its safe to test it. I want to know what Lucy felt under his hands when shooting.

3: Can i use 44/40 ammo on it?
like Hornady 44.40 cowboy action 205 grains ?
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 44-40 :: 44-40 205 gr Cowboy™
Here in my country we don't have a large offer of 44/40...

4: What's the best method to clean it without making loosing value?, can i polish it?

Well thanks all for your comments, and sorry for my english, Lucy will be dissapointed!, ja!

Fabian

Oliversound · #2 08-27-2016, 04:34 PM

Some more pictures

shouldazagged · #3 08-27-2016, 05:52 PM

Welcome to the forum, Oliversound.

I don't know than answers to your questions, but someone here will be able to help you.

I can tell you that the "shiny" Smith & Wesson guns were nickel-plated, not chromed.

opoefc · #4 08-27-2016, 08:05 PM

Welcome! You have a S&W .44-40 Double Action revolver. As you say, the finish, which was once nickel plated has rusted to it's present condition. You can clean the corrosion some with very fine steel wool, size 0000 and gun oil, WD40 or similar. It is a black powder gun, so cowboy loads should work 0K if the gun is in good mechanical condition. The cylinder should turn when the gun is half cocked, but should index tightly when cocked. I don't know gun values in Uruguay, so can't give you any advice on that, however as a family heirloom, it should be priceless. Good Luck, Ed.

bruce5781 · #5 08-27-2016, 08:14 PM

What a great story, Fabian.
Thank you for sharing. That is a wonderful family heirloom.

Regards,
Bruce

tlay · #6 08-27-2016, 08:43 PM

After cleaning with 0000 steel or bronze wool you can polish it with a product called Flitz. It is a metal polish. Any metal polish will help because you don't have much nickel plating left to hurt. after polishing use a good wax such as Renaissance wax. You can use it on the grips too! Make sure you are careful of the grips, don't tighten them down too much because you can crack them.

mmaher94087 · #7 08-27-2016, 09:01 PM

"The cylinder should turn when the gun is not cocked,.." NO. The cylinder should lock when the hammer is down or when the hammer is at full-cock. The only time the cylinder revolves freely is when the revolver is at half-cock. Also, please do not clean it with 'Steel Wool'. Apply a very liberal application of oil and let it soak in for some time, then a judicious bronze wool scrubbing will rid the revolver of loose surface rust. The patina is a badge of honor for such an old firearm; anything more will diminish the value.

SilentKnight · #8 08-27-2016, 09:56 PM

Thanks for sharing that wonderful story Fabian. You have a fantastic family heirloom. My first thoughts were to avoid polishing it due to possibly diminishing value; however, if you never intend to let it slip from the grasp of the family cleaning it up would make it more attractive. As stated previously, letting it soak in some gun oil overnight will loosen things up and a good cleaning with coarse cloth will give you an idea of how much further you might want to take the cleaning. Treat it as gently as you would great grand mother and bring it back to health. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

JSR III · #9 08-27-2016, 10:00 PM

Welcome to the forum.

My only addition to the comments above would be to take off the stocks and place the gun in a pan full of your favorite gun cleaner. Red's, kerosene, paint thinner or whatever you prefer to break down the 100 years of crud that has built up inside the various nooks and crannies.

After a day or so of soaking, clean it gently with 0000 brass wool but be careful not to rub so hard that you round off any of the dome top pins or high edges. Take some compressed air and blow out the nooks and crannies and wipe it down with clean cloths until all of the crud is gone. A little oil to the workings through the hammer joint will help lubricate and protect the insides. If you are real careful you can remove the side plate and clean it and lubricate it through that opening but side plate removal is an art and damage can be done if you don't do it correctly.

As others have said, once cleaned thoroughly a good coat of Renaissance Wax will help preserve the remaining metal and allow you to handle the gun without worrying too much about leaving oily fingerprints.

Neat gun with a neat family history. Enjoy.

iby · #10 08-28-2016, 12:03 AM

Your revolver is not a New Model 3. It is a 1st model D.A. Frontier.(44 Winchester Ctg}. I would soak it on oil for a long time and clean off the surface rust with a soft cloth. After that ? Total production of your model was approx 15,000

Oliversound · #11 08-28-2016, 01:06 AM

Thanks all of you for your answers and tips.
I will clean the rust, and i"l post pictures later to share the results.
I"ll cleaning it the most that i can, without removing the remaining patina.
I would like to remove the side plate as James sugest, so what's a safe method to remove it?

The barrel behaves as Mike pointed.
I don't know in what material are made the grips, but i" ll take care on tightening as tom sais.

How can i know if it's safe to shoot?

Were are located the serial numbers to see if the are all the same? I've found one on the base of the grip, and on the barrel and they match, but i think there's a third one?

Thanks again for your nice support!
Fabian

Wiregrassguy · #12 08-28-2016, 10:58 AM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass!

JSR III · #13 08-28-2016, 02:17 PM

Again, I would soak it to soften the crud before doing anything. Side plates and or screws remove easier after soaking in some penetrating oil first.

There is a screw in the side plate that must be removed. Take care to choose the correct tipped screw driver as buggered screws are a definite turn off. Once you have the correct screwdriver, remove the screw. There are a couple of methods that you can use to remove the plate.

One is to hold the gun plate side down over a soft cloth or towel. Cover the reverse side with another cloth or a piece of soft leather and tap the opposite side with a plastic hammer or a wooden dowel. Hopefully, the plate will fall off the frame due to the downward inertia.

The second method that I have used recently with antique pistols is to cock the hammer and take the tip of a plastic pen and insert it between the plate and the other wall of the frame. Pry gently and the plate should come loose. The plastic pen is soft enough that it doesn't mar the metal.

If you decide to disassemble the innards, unless you have a photographic memory, take a photo to remind you where everything goes when reassembling. You may also want to write down the order in which the pieces came out so you can reverse the order when putting things back. If there are any springs or spring loaded parts inside, I place the gun inside a large clear plastic bag so just in case anything goes flying, it stays in the bag. The clear plastic still allows you to see what you are doing.

That's my method. Others may have different suggestions.

quinn · #14 08-28-2016, 03:13 PM

An alternative solution to soak your gun:
50% Automatice trasmission fluid, and
50% acetone or mineral spirtis.

This second chemical thins the ATF and helps it penetrate. You can soak it for several days. When you remove it from the mix it will take a couple of days to fully drain out. Acetone can evaporate quickly to keep the dish covered to slow the evaporation. Mineral spirits evaporates more slowly.

After soaking you can remove the heavy oil with aerosol 'brake parts cleaner' from the auto parts store.

Anoter aerosol that I like for removing the rust is called "PB Blaster" here in the states. It is a rust penetrant used to free rusted screws.

Bueno suerte.

Skeetr57 · #15 08-28-2016, 08:05 PM

sw44russ, I don't know about ammo loaded down under, but modern US loaded ammo for top break calibers is perfectly safe to use in a gun that is in good enough condition to fire with black powder. Also, firing a few soft copper jacketed rounds is not going to hurt the bore. The only bores I have ever seen damaged by jacketed bullets were target guns that had been fired many thousands of times. There were cartridges loaded in .44-40 at one time that were high pressure/high velocity that should not be used in revolvers, and some rifles, but those high speed rounds have not been loaded in over 60 years. The no3 double action was cataloged and sold until 1913 or so, well after smokeless powder was the norm, and the smaller caliber top breaks were made and sold until 1940 with no changes in metallurgy noted.

Oliversound · #16 08-28-2016, 08:29 PM

Jsr, thanks for your suggestions.
It was strange to see how easy all the screws can be removed. I was shocked because i expected stiff screws....this are good news.
The bag tip, is another good one, thanks.
Txs quinn for your mixture option.
Sw44 russ, and skeetr57, i see there's oposed opinions about ammo.
When i first see "cowboy" ready ammo, i thought they was intended to be used with old "cowboy" firearms ( rifles or revolvers)....may be i was wrong..
skeetr57, you say that cowboy ammo is fine for this kind of revolvers?

Oliversound · #17 09-02-2016, 08:49 PM

Well after 2 days, soaked in plenty of W40 ( 2 cans), i've used bronze wool to polish the rust.
I need to say that the revolver is silkier now, it shines a little, all in all feels realy clean.
The plate has been removed easily.

It's my first gun inspection, but it seems to be very healthy.
Can you give me your opinions on how it looks the mecanical part of the trigger?, to me looks and feels solid, rock solid.
It doesn't seems to be used a lot..i'm wrong?

It was a nice surprise to discover the lines inside the barrel.

Now it's time to shoot.

Thanks all for your support!
Fabian

Oliversound · #18 09-02-2016, 08:53 PM

more pics to see the difference

lebomm · #19 09-02-2016, 09:22 PM

Fabian;
One more welcome to the forum! From your pictures of the mechanism, it looks as if the mainspring (hammer spring) is disconnected from the stirrup (the small swinging piece on the 'tail' of the hammer). If so, the pistol may not fire reliably. I cannot see the stirrup clearly, but it should have a small cross-pin on its tail to engage the hooks on the mainspring.
If broken, the part, or an acceptable replacement, will probably be available without too much difficulty.
iBienvenidos y muy Buena suerte!

Larry

mmaher94087 · #20 09-02-2016, 09:33 PM

Agree; the stirrup cross-pin appears to be broken at the main spring "ears" but can be replaced with a piece of 'drill-rod' - a tool steel or metal drill piece..

JSR III · #21 09-02-2016, 09:57 PM

Boy, you guys got some real good eyes.

Oliversound · #22 09-02-2016, 10:07 PM

What a bad surprise!!

someone has a picture of how it should be, to understand where the problem is?
Thanks for your time, and as James sais, really god eyes!
I want to understand the problem, to arrive to solve it.
Here's another picture, and yes it moves free over his axe.
Can you identify the part on the diagram? what number is it?
307B?
What's his job?
Thanks!

Oliversound · #23 09-02-2016, 10:49 PM

Hello Larry and Mike , thanks for your answers do you think i can buy a replacement part?
Where?
Thanks

Oliversound · #24 09-03-2016, 07:52 AM

Ok, i was investigating a bit, and i've seen a stirrup on ebay for the S&W K L N frames.

I'e asked the seller if it can be compatible with the 44 DA, and answered : "it should work" what's your opinion?.
Thanks again

Here' the replacement part.

JSR III · #25 09-03-2016, 09:20 AM

I"m no gunsmith and I typically work with wood not metal. That is the correct ID of the part but not sure if the size is the same.

I need a hand for a 1 1/2 new model and tried swapping it with the one in my Model 2 Army. It did not work.

If the stirrup on eBay is close, you may be able to file it in some way to make it fit. I could not do that with the model 2 hand as then I would need one for it.

Since I need parts for both my 1 1/2 and model 2, I can tell you that they are not easy to come buy unless you find someone with a junker that they are parting out. Even then, the parts get sold quickly so you have to be first on the scene. Good luck.

mmaher94087 · #26 09-03-2016, 12:16 PM

"I'e asked the seller if it can be compatible with the 44 DA, and answered : "it should work" what's your opinion?." I don't know if it will work or not. If the price is low enough then it might be worth a try. The stirrup will go in two ways; try them both if the first doesn't work. Be very careful when cocking the hammer as the mainspring may bind on the hammer and break. That is a very costly spring to replace.

Oliversound · #27 09-04-2016, 07:21 PM

Thanks James and Mike for your coments
I´ve bought the part on ebay, let's see if it works.

Now: procedure. I need help again....

How can i remove the pin that take it in place the stirrup?
What's the best procedure to mount the new? and to atach it to the mainspring??

Thanks for your opinions again

Fabian

mmaher94087 · #28 09-04-2016, 09:06 PM

The pin holding the stirrup to the hammer is easily punched out. I either use a bag of #7 1/2 shot or two (~1/4") pieces of Latago leather; the type that saddles are made of - and place the part on top. I punch the pin out from the left side but have found no difference (no taper) in pins. I recommend Brownell's 'cupped' pin punches as they do not slip off the rounded S&W pins nor do they "flatten" the end of the pin when hit.

The variable that I'm ignorant of is the relative length between the base pin hole and the cross-pin that holds the mainspring. That dimension is critical but a very minor variance can be remedied. Check your replacement part with the old part.

Next, see if the new part will fit. The base (the rounded portion where the stirrup/hammer pin goes) may be too large and may need filing. Also the upper, curved portion may need filing to give it some relief on the hammer.

The attaching of the mainspring can be a chore. There are a few different ways to accomplish this feat. My way: I install the mainspring (centered on the frame; side-to-side) and tighten the strain screw until it bottoms out. With the hammer, hand and stirrup installed in the revolver, I take a shaved dowel or flat-blade screwdriver and lever the mainspring down enough to catch the stirrup. Stirrup lays on the hammer, then the mainspring is 'bent'; then the stirrup is flipped through the ears of the mainspring and pressure is relieved on the mainspring seating the cross-pin of the stirrup in the recess of the mainspring.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Oliversound · #29 09-05-2016, 07:40 AM

Hello Mike, very very clear. Thanks for your response.
If everything works, need i to lubricate it with a light grease or i can use W40?, just on the center pin, or in the mainspring-stirrup contact surface too?

Txs all!

JSR III · #30 09-05-2016, 09:19 AM

The way that I did mine was to put the hammer at about half cock with the strain screw loosened so that no part of it extends inside the frame. I then hooked the spring (the claw like part) under the T pin that protrudes from the stirrup. At this point, the spring bottom is not in the recess at the bottom of the grip frame. I slowly cock the hammer back while directing the spring bottom into the slot at the bottom of the grip frame. Once it bottoms out, I tighten the strain screw to hold it in place and add a little tension to the spring. If you cannot hold the spring to align with the slot while cocking the hammer, you may have to use something to wedge it over. A dowel or a wedge shaped piece of wood placed inside the frame may do the trick.

I've had mine in and out several times while removing the hand stud and trying the Model 2 army hand and it went in very easily each time.

Oliversound · #31 09-05-2016, 09:24 AM

Thanks James for your explanation, clear.
I guess to loosen the stirrup i need to take of the hammer assembly to free the pin..i'm right?

txs again

mmaher94087 · #32 09-05-2016, 11:45 AM

Take the hammer out of the frame then drift the stirrup pin out. A light oil should be applied to the pivot pin and cross pin. I use Rem-oil or Hoppies gun oil.

Oliversound · #33 09-05-2016, 02:17 PM

Thanks Mike.