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Old 09-17-2016, 12:50 PM
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Question Model 3 44 Russian. Historical Letter Received.

A friend of mine owns the below gun and has asked me for some help identifying when this was made, and if this might be factory or aftermarket engraved, and possibly a current market value. It is a Model 3 44 Russian caliber serial number 17137. I know nothing about antique Smith&Wessons and would appreciate any information which I could pass on to him. Thank you in advance.


Last edited by Model39; 10-18-2016 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Letter received
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Old 09-17-2016, 01:11 PM
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That's a beautiful gun! it shipped sometime around 1885 or 1886. So it is an antique. I can't help you with the Engraving. There are some people here on the Forum that are experts in that area that should be along soon.

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Old 09-17-2016, 02:12 PM
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Holey Cow, that gun is perfect, from the pics. Where has it been? That gun is an entire study. I like it. Best.
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Old 09-17-2016, 11:28 PM
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Your friend might have a national treasure in this gun. Best he run, not walk, to the nearest phone, call the factory,( during working hours ) ask for Roy Jinks, the factory historian, and describe the gun to Roy, send him full set of complete photos via his email, and get his opinion. Then depending on what he tells your friend, order a factory historical letter and then a SWHF research package of the archives on this gun. The engraving is of factory quality, but can't tell for sure until above steps are taken, as same quality work could be ordered after market. Whatever, it's an extraordinary S&W New Model No. 3, worth considerable cash. Good Luck, Ed.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:47 AM
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Not to be a party-pooper----------------------but

The rear sight, ostensibly of the target variety------ain't right---which is to say it is not the rear target sight of the period. Given the other embellishment of the gun, this doesn't have me running for the alarm bells, but there are questions:

The rear target sight of the period is adjustable for elevation via a small screw found on the underside of the latch assembly---on the center section---toward the front of the assembly. Is it there?

The sight is also adjustable (movable at least) for windage-----via the loosening of two small screws holding a retaining plate against the rear of the blade---at the rear of the sight. Is the plate there? Are the screws there?

And said blade is plainly visible (within the assembly) from the side. No such blade is visible here.

Neither the polish nor the color of the bluing is "right". Given such judgments made from a photo lack credibility, mine are no different.

Quittin' time!

Ralph Tremaine

And as an aside, the correct identity of the gun is New Model #3---or Model #3 New Model---or (not often) .44 Single Action (Never mind it was made in over a dozen calibers---only three of which are .44.).

Last edited by rct269; 09-18-2016 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Picking nits.
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Old 09-18-2016, 06:33 AM
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I agree with Ralph. Neither the colour or the polish of the bluing seem "right".

Also, the engraving, while excellent, doesn't appear to be period. I am by no means an expert on engraving patterns, but the engraving on the side of the trigger guard strongly suggests to me engraving performed later. Also, with regards to the underside of the front of the barrel, is that dust or engraving? If engraving, this would further raise suspicions as, given the rest of the pattern, this would not probably be period. Again, however, this could be just dust--difficult for me to tell from the photograph.

Lastly, no mention has been made of the front sight blade. It should be a target blade. This one is just a standard blade. I have a target front sight blade that, I thought, was never installed. Interestingly, when I photographed it earlier today, it appears that it was installed on something at one time or another. It does not contain a serial number. The arched portions would be contained in a groove within the barrel, so the more squared off portions would be the target blade that would be evident on a Target New Model No 3 revolver, if as installed.
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Old 09-18-2016, 11:31 AM
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The comments concerning the front sight are correct, but nothing all that unusual----and nothing to fret about. There were several front blades available, and folks changed them at the drop of a hat. This one (as noted) is not one of the dozen or so target blade options available, and strikes me as an addition made because it looks good----which was clearly what the folks had in mind for this gun.

As an aside for mrcvs, a new (never installed) sight blade will not have a pin hole in it. If it has a hole, it's been on a gun. And if/when you go to put it on another gun, that hole is very likely going to be not quite in the right place----and will require some hole moving work.

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Old 09-19-2016, 08:37 PM
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Model39,
Did your friend provide any history on the gun that you could share?
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:03 PM
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Default Not Much Information

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Model39,
Did your friend provide any history on the gun that you could share?
Petter
Sorry not much information. My friend likes nice guns, and this one fills the bill. I have a shipping date request in with Roy Jinks on the S&WCA side of this Forum, and hopefully Roy will say to get this lettered if it turns out to be something special. I'll share anymore info when I get it, and appreciate the help and information to all who have responded to this request.
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Old 09-20-2016, 12:25 AM
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If possible several more photos from different angles would also help. Many would be skeptical due to the high condition of this gun. It is somewhat unusual to see a gun this old in this condition. Almost as if it were in a time capsule.

Regardless, it certainly looks cool.
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model39 View Post
Sorry not much information. My friend likes nice guns, and this one fills the bill. I have a shipping date request in with Roy Jinks on the S&WCA side of this Forum, and hopefully Roy will say to get this lettered if it turns out to be something special. I'll share anymore info when I get it, and appreciate the help and information to all who have responded to this request.
PLEASE share your results, even if it does not turn out to be special. This is an interactive and educational forum, so any and all information is welcome!
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Old 09-20-2016, 04:47 PM
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Sorry not much information. My friend likes nice guns, and this one fills the bill. I have a shipping date request in with Roy Jinks on the S&WCA side of this Forum, and hopefully Roy will say to get this lettered if it turns out to be something special. I'll share anymore info when I get it, and appreciate the help and information to all who have responded to this request.
Provided it letters out correctly, I'd be an interested party to purchase, when and if it is offered for sale.
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Model39 View Post
A friend of mine owns the below gun and has asked me for some help identifying when this was made, and if this might be factory or aftermarket engraved, and possibly a current market value. It is a Model 3 44 Russian caliber serial number 17137. I know nothing about antique Smith&Wessons and would appreciate any information which I could pass on to him. Thank you in advance.


The GOOD: It's a handsome piece. Lines look crisp and clean. Not to be alarmed that the front sight is not a target sight. Important is if the barrel, barrel latch, cylinder, and butt SNs match.

The BAD: Cannot be sure from photo but perhaps had been restored or refinished. It appears the trigger guard and trigger are blue. S&W didn't do that. Trigger, Trigger guard and hammer should all be case colored.

The UGLY: NONE !! it does not apply. A NM3 like this could never be ugly so.

However, it is most important is that it left S&W in that configuration and if the engraving was factory. A historical letter from Roy will tell the tale.

You can carefully remove those gorgeous grips (which I am assuming are genuine ivory) to look for marking on left side of grip panel on the steel frame flats that the grips cover. If refinished or serviced at the factory there should be a date, e.g. 4.22 would be April 1922. 10.33 would be October 1933 etc and so on.

Good luck with that. best regards, Sal
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:21 PM
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Provided it letters out correctly, I'd be an interested party to purchase, when and if it is offered for sale.
Nice try!! I suspect there will be many interested parties!!
Even if it was Engraved in the 50s and Blued last year; it's still a very pretty gun...
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:41 PM
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Been mulling having that done to my commercial Russian 3rd Model. Only got about 5% finish left.
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Old 09-20-2016, 05:46 PM
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Nice try!! I suspect there will be many interested parties!!
Even if it was Engraved in the 50s and Blued last year; it's still a very pretty gun...
In that you may be correct, many other may be interested, too. Will you be one of them ?
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Old 09-20-2016, 06:36 PM
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In that you may be correct, many other may be interested, too. Will you be one of them ?
Given that the Piece has pretty much certainly been a plain Jane that someone has Engraved (very well) and Blued; hell yes!!

The Giveaways are the Engraved and Blued Trigger Guard and Blued Trigger to me; not that I'm adverse to Refinished Guns; i'm not a rich man so High Condition Originals aren't an option. I tend not to buy anything I cant shoot or feel its too good to shoot, though I do have a 3rd Model .38 Lemon Squeezer that appears unfired and will likely stay that way.

I guess it all depends what the Value ends up at....funny thing is I was never all that enamoured with Engraving; but somehow this pretty Blue Gun has turned my head around!!

A SN Inspection to see if it all matches up would be nice too....a 'Bitza' would be an ideal candidate for a Rework by an obviously talented Engraver; the Blue and Stocks are also just a bit too good to be true. One would have to think something this Special would be a well Documented Safe Queen with Provenance if it were Legit.

That said, if it turns out to be Teddy Roosevelt's long lost treasure that was presented by the King of Jordan or whatever, I'm going to have a pretty red face - but somehow I doubt it...

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Old 09-20-2016, 07:53 PM
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Please check me on this, but, the barrel has the short ejector housing.
my nm3 shipped in 1889 has the longer one.
I don't know the range of the transition.???
Mike
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Old 09-21-2016, 04:37 AM
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Default More Infromation And Pictures

As requested here is more information and extra pictures.
My friend told me he has had this gun for over 30 years. He got it from a gentleman he met in a local gun shop they both frequented a lot. This gentleman had several great old handguns, this Model 3 being one of them, and when the man got sick with cancer he offered my friend one of his guns, and he chose this Model 3. My friend has done nothing with this revolver except to take extremely great care of it. My friend asked me to help him find out more about this gun, as he is interested in selling it.
I requested shipping information from Smith&Wesson Historian Roy Jinks on the S&WCA side of this Forum, and received the following information: The revolver was shipped in October of 1882, and Mr. Jinks said this revolver is of importance and deserves a historical letter. The reason wasn't stated, but it may indicate that this revolver might have been a special order engraved gun, time will tell. My friend will definitely follow up getting a letter and any other information The Smith&Wesson Historical Society may have on this revolver. As soon as he knows of it's importance, I will share it with the Forum. My friend sent me the following extra pictures. **NOTE** The grips are indeed real Ivory.




PLEASE for the time being don't make any offers to buy this revolver until he and I know all the information needed to document this revolver properly so as to affix the proper price for sale. I will keep all of you informed, and will update accordingly. Again thank all of you here on the Forum for all your interest and input.
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:33 AM
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I'll take it. OOPS, sorry wrong forum.
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Old 09-21-2016, 06:59 PM
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Well I hope I was dead wrong on this and it sounds like that might be the case. Maybe it's a Nimschke or a Gustave young or one of his Sons.....there are examples of Engraving on not only Trigger Guards but Hammers too.......(see the Russian at the bottom of pg38 in the Standard Catalogue)
The work looks 'Period' to me and even in the 'New York' or Nimschke Style. The Blueing is maybe what is throwing us all off the trail....
Fingers crossed Mr Jinks will have very good news on this one. Man, what a find if the news is as ''Important'' as it sounds......
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Old 09-22-2016, 12:51 PM
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IMHO, I feel that the serious collectors of the Model 3s may have seen so many re-blued, oriental and / or modern engraved, New Model 3's, that some of us might have been too quick to jump to conclusions. In most cases those quick conclusions could likely correct more times than not, but once in a great while comes a genuine peach. Then those collectors that do not truly specialize in Model 3s might be more apt to misjudge a fine piece when one comes along.

Back about 30 years ago there were an influx of many, oriental engraved NM3's showing up on antique dealers' tables. Some of them actually looked quite impressive. Same thing with the older Colt SAA's.

With purist collectors a newer engraving on an older gun completely ruins the originality and value. Yet, I've seen freshly engraved and reblued 1st and 2nd Gen SAA go for unbelievable amounts of money. That is something I cannot figure out nor logic with for the life of me. It is usually the lesser grade guns that go out for newer engraving to hide some of the defects and imperfections of the piece.

The first set of pictures Sam posted were nice but not as impressive and the second set posted. Yes, by rule of thumb ... the trigger and trigger guard are supposed to be case colored and the top of the posts are supposed to be in the white. And, yes, it surely has been refinished, however, after engraving, the gun would naturally HAVE to be refinished or the engraving would remain bare to the elements and rust. The front sight not being a target sight ? No harm no foul. I was the contributing editor to the BBGV that added the entire statement on the New Model 3, 44 Target, that there should be no deduction in value if the front sight has been replaced. On a standard NM3 Target gun the target sight would get caught on almost everything and anything. It was a terror to holster, and forget quick draw. I have seen many New Model 3. 44 Targets, having the front sight replaced with the non target front sights. I suppose in this specific gun the front sight was to keep the lines clean and smooth. Also, usually when the front sight was replaced, the front sight pin (in the side of the barrel) would get boogered, more times than not. Only a fine gunsmith could replace the front sight without leaving some sort of evidence on or near the sight pin. Usually , if replaced, are found with a larger size pin than the original. The front sight pin on this one looks fine.

Over the years I have had this "discussion" (sometimes heated) with other collectors. Basically, any gun that has been engraved has been reblued (or re-nickeled as the case may be), other than newer alloy guns where the engraving is sometimes left bare to show up more vividly as the alloy will not rust. The concern is if the finish or re-finish is period to the engraving and shipping date (or production date) or not.

As a side note I have a transition American that I paid a hefty price for (at that time) about 20 years ago, refinished by the factory in 1924. It is absolutely magnificent. S&W did it's best work, per-war, I feel. It continued almost as nice, post-war, up to the 1960s (while we know the post-war quality of mechanical smoothness, preparation to detail prior to finish and the finish itself of new guns of the post-war period also suffered as compared to pre-war). Those that I've examined, that were refinished in the 1970s take a noticeable dive in craftsmanship of prep work and finish. I have nothing to support this other than my own observations and a theory I formulated, long ago (with no support). I feel, about that time in the 1970s the WWII crew of craftsmen were retiring off. With them went a era of craftsmanship that few have remained as rigid in quality and standards.

As for the trigger guard on this one, I can abide with the engraver choosing to blue it, as well, to be an additional canvas upon which to add more engraving, thus the blue that adds dimension to engraving that would be less vivid if case colored. It could also be, but less likely, the craftsman that performed reblued (after engraving) didn't have the facility or access to reproduce the exact color case method. The top vertical posts (that the barrel latch catches) are blued, too. This was my first inclination that the gun had been refinished but this could be one of the very few exceptions, I feel, left to the artist's discretion.

For those of you who have it, look at some of the pieces in the "Artistry in Arms" The Guns of Smith and Wesson, book, published about 20 years ago by Roy Jinks. After you study this book you'd likely determine it is impossible to set one rule that will apply to all guns that are customized or embellished, e.g. those that were not standard production models.

When it comes to those select group that are finely engraved, it is in the eyes and hands of the engraver, as he sees it, how his masterpiece of art work on the gun is presented and parts refinished.

In the second set of pictures posted the depth, detail and sharp, clean lines of the engraving are much more distinct.

I'm rooting for the home team here, that this comes back with an impressive letter from Roy, and it is, in fact, in original condition rather than a more recent reblued or restoration, which (in this case) a 2nd reblue or a newer restoration might matter very little depending of who may have restored it and when the work had been performed.

The last factor to consider (after the letter from Roy), naturally, is a physical examination of the piece confirming the usual stuff, matching numbers, etc. and verification of original condition or second re-blue or newer restoration, which I fore mentioned, may matter very little in this specific case. As we all realize ... it is almost impossible to determine originality of configuration and / or finish and / or mechanical condition by pictures alone.

If that is the original period blue, from the 1880s, I'd have to say this gun was truly and completely loved. We're talking about approximately 130 years of love and preservation to remain in this condition.

If it had been reblued or restored, subsequent to the original engraving, that would be understandable.

I have purchased most of my fine collectible pieces from older collectors.

As a younger collector I quickly realized that the truly nice S&Ws were almost all already in the hands of the serious collectors and had been so for decades.

Sure, there is that 1 in 1000 chance where you might have someone contact you that pulled a truly unique and impressive old S&W out a closet after a century of storage, or was a Grandfather gun, etc., but those come few and far between and most have more of a tall tale with them than factual history or scarcity. The energy is wasted in searching for those few that might come in from left field as compared to those already in the hands of serious collectors, I feel.

I'd much rather deal with an older collector and pay a fair price for something I like than spend an indefinite amount of time (time that I could be working, making money) and thousands of dollars in travel, hotels & expenses, going to those few really good shows where the good stuff might show up, OR I'd spend the time and money attending one S&WCA Symposiums that have more truly rare and collectible S&W's, in one place at one time, than you'd ever see or find 20 years of searching.

A friend and mentor of mine had a hand painted sign in his shop (with a painting of an older nag eating from a feedbag) stating:

"Quality is like buying oats. If you want quality oats you must be willing to pay a fair price, however, if you can be satisfied with oats that have already been through the horse ... they come a lot cheaper".

I believe in and abide by this reasoning as it is good sense, I feel. I'll keep seeking those few older S&W's that are of finer quality as opposed to those that may have been through the horse ... some of them more than once.
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Old 09-22-2016, 01:01 PM
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Sal's dissertation is right on the money. ( I had that same sign in my old gun store years ago! ) I'm sticking with my original post that this is an important S&Ws and and hope the future owner will have a display for an annual Symposium, so we can all admire it first hand! Ed.
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Old 09-22-2016, 01:21 PM
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Sal's dissertation is right on the money. ( I had that same sign in my old gun store years ago! ) I'm sticking with my original post that this is an important S&Ws and and hope the future owner will have a display for an annual Symposium, so we can all admire it first hand! Ed.
You "learned me" good, Dad. I might not have some of the nice pieces I do today had I not started following your learned advice many years ago.

You have been a true inspiration to me ... and ... I'm sure, to many other younger collectors. too. (some of them now old, like me)

I hope only to pass on some of the jewels of wisdom that you so graciously passed to me over the years.
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Old 09-22-2016, 02:36 PM
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Based on what has surfaced since my Post #6, above, it appears that I might be wrong, and so I stand corrected. I just have seen so much engraving, and refinishing, of firearms purported to be 100% original, that it stands to reason that I would be skeptical! Sal hit the nail on the head in Post #22.

In this case, if proven to be wrong, I am glad that this may be the case--"not just another fake!" If so, you may indeed have a real treasure and this is a learning experience for all!
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Old 09-22-2016, 03:17 PM
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Somebody check me, but I have only seen eight pics of the engraved gun that is the center of this Thread. I understand all the posts, but making any positive judgement is virtually impossible. From my understanding, two people have actually held the gun and looked at it. Im just going to wait and read what Mr. Jinks letter indicates. Im not going to go and pursue a lengthy Tutorial. The gun needs a lot more research. Best
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Old 09-22-2016, 04:15 PM
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Somebody check me, but I have only seen eight pics of the engraved gun that is the center of this Thread. I understand all the posts, but making any positive judgement is virtually impossible. From my understanding, two people have actually held the gun and looked at it. Im just going to wait and read what Mr. Jinks letter indicates. Im not going to go and pursue a lengthy Tutorial. The gun needs a lot more research. Best
Thank you for your keen insight, Mike.
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Old 09-22-2016, 04:46 PM
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As an aside of small import, I believe a factory engraved gun will seldom (if ever) be refinished after (and because of) the engraving. That simply because they were engraved "in the white"---then finished---for the first time. Similarly, I know the factory shipped "in the white" guns to buyers who were going to have them engraved by "aftermarket" artists.

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Old 09-22-2016, 05:08 PM
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As an aside of small import, I believe a factory engraved gun will seldom (if ever) be refinished after (and because of) the engraving. That simply because they were engraved "in the white"---then finished---for the first time. Similarly, I know the factory shipped "in the white" guns to buyers who were going to have them engraved by "aftermarket" artists.

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I'm not sure about that. This seems like an "ask Roy" question, to me.
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:41 PM
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I am leaning towards this being original, despite the inclination to be a naysayer, and perceived inherent problems, and here's why: In the "Ship Date Request" section, on 9-20-16 this firearm number 17137 is listed by Roy as shipping in October of 1882. He quotes the following: "It is an important gun and deserves a letter." It seems to me this is likely in direct reference to extraordinary features such as engraving.
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Old 09-22-2016, 07:08 PM
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I'm not sure about that. This seems like an "ask Roy" question, to me.
Sounds like a plan----------ask him!

And while I took pains----and used some selected weasel words to avoid seeming to be stating absolute facts, let me propose a small wager on the outcome of such an inquiry---as much as you're comfortable losing.

And no fair splitting your winnings with Roy!!

RT
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Old 09-22-2016, 09:44 PM
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Sounds like a plan----------ask him!

And while I took pains----and used some selected weasel words to avoid seeming to be stating absolute facts, let me propose a small wager on the outcome of such an inquiry---as much as you're comfortable losing.

And no fair splitting your winnings with Roy!!

RT
LOL !! All bets are off on this one.
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Old 10-18-2016, 11:35 AM
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As requested here is more information and extra pictures.
My friend told me he has had this gun for over 30 years. He got it from a gentleman he met in a local gun shop they both frequented a lot. This gentleman had several great old handguns, this Model 3 being one of them, and when the man got sick with cancer he offered my friend one of his guns, and he chose this Model 3. My friend has done nothing with this revolver except to take extremely great care of it. My friend asked me to help him find out more about this gun, as he is interested in selling it.
I requested shipping information from Smith&Wesson Historian Roy Jinks on the S&WCA side of this Forum, and received the following information: The revolver was shipped in October of 1882, and Mr. Jinks said this revolver is of importance and deserves a historical letter. The reason wasn't stated, but it may indicate that this revolver might have been a special order engraved gun, time will tell. My friend will definitely follow up getting a letter and any other information The Smith&Wesson Historical Society may have on this revolver. As soon as he knows of it's importance, I will share it with the Forum. My friend sent me the following extra pictures. **NOTE** The grips are indeed real Ivory.




PLEASE for the time being don't make any offers to buy this revolver until he and I know all the information needed to document this revolver properly so as to affix the proper price for sale. I will keep all of you informed, and will update accordingly. Again thank all of you here on the Forum for all your interest and input.
Letter Arrived, attached below;
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Old 10-18-2016, 12:57 PM
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Well it is a gun I would love to own.
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:32 PM
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So the significance is in that it shipped to the US Treasury Dept and not in the engraving.

IMO, the Ivory grips are too white and oversized to date to the late 1800's.
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Old 10-18-2016, 01:56 PM
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Here is a NY engraved 1st Russian I had a while back for comparison. It shipped to MW Robinson and had been re-plated back in the 1970's

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Old 10-18-2016, 02:00 PM
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Rock Island sold one that shipped to the same destination; the old auction (closed, but I can't find a date at first look), is here:

Smith & Wesson - New Model No 3-Revolver Firearms Auction Lot-2

A snip with the pertinent details is below. It gives the Captain's name as Moore, not Moon, by the way.
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Old 10-18-2016, 02:03 PM
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A little S&W trivia: Many yrs. ago, Roy Jinks was perusing the NM#3 shipping records and noticed a number of guns going to "Rev. XXXX " ( The XXXX being various names ) and made a logical guess that a series of Bible Thumping Reverends were arming them selves with S&Ws, perhaps tho save all sinners with either the Good Book or something of .44 caliber! later invoices for these guns were discovered which solved the mystery and the "Rev." stood for Revenue Cutter, forerunner of the U.S.Coast Guard.
Having said all that, we now know the subject gun has little chance of being documented as factory engraved But is a genuine Revenue Cutter gun, a rarity in itself . I've compared the engraving to pulls from Nimschke and the Young family. I see some similarity to work by 0scar Young, but am not saying it's his as yet. It is very good engraving nevertheless. It can also be said that adding after market embellishments to a rare in itself firearm, does not add significant value, so we have something that " is what it is." Ed.
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Old 10-18-2016, 03:23 PM
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I think the key is in the grips. We know it shipped blue with rubber stocks and it would be reasonable to assume the pictured Ivories were added when the pistol was engraved...



They appear very oversize in the pic above and IMO are no where near aged enough to date pre WW1.
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Old 10-18-2016, 04:09 PM
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A little S&W trivia: Many yrs. ago, Roy Jinks was perusing the NM#3 shipping records and noticed a number of guns going to "Rev. XXXX " ( The XXXX being various names ) and made a logical guess that a series of Bible Thumping Reverends were arming them selves with S&Ws, perhaps tho save all sinners with either the Good Book or something of .44 caliber! later invoices for these guns were discovered which solved the mystery and the "Rev." stood for Revenue Cutter, forerunner of the U.S.Coast Guard.
Having said all that, we now know the subject gun has little chance of being documented as factory engraved But is a genuine Revenue Cutter gun, a rarity in itself . I've compared the engraving to pulls from Nimschke and the Young family. I see some similarity to work by 0scar Young, but am not saying it's his as yet. It is very good engraving nevertheless. It can also be said that adding after market embellishments to a rare in itself firearm, does not add significant value, so we have something that " is what it is." Ed.
Ed, I'm thinking the same. Likely NY engraved or "in the school of" NY engraving.

As the refinish is much newer than the gun, itself, my concern would be the engraving, itself.

The Revenue Cutter Service puts it in the "A" category all by itself. But, I have seen several New Model 3s ... with what was described as "Japanese" engraving ... on a noted dealer's table. That was in 1988-1990.

These were offered by noted antique arms dealer and author of many articles in older collector magazines, Ron Ogan (RIP), who taught me about Model 3s. I also had the added benefit of having Norm Flayderman (RIP) as a guest at our Palm Beach Collectors Club annual dinners. He was another walking encyclopedia of antique firearms.

Those that are, (if in fact) Japanese engraved, were quite breath-taking examples of more recently engraved guns intentionally engraved in the period styles.

I'm hoping the engraving is "period" on this gun. It's the finish that makes me a bit more inquisitive as to the origin of the engraving, if such determination must be made solely by looking at photos).

I like it no matter who engraved it, as long as the engraving is by a skilled artisan. Naturally, period engraving would make it much more desirable.
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Old 10-18-2016, 05:18 PM
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The Plot thickens!! Anyone seen more than one or two examples of the late Japanese Engravings? Was is up to this kind of Standard?

Those blocky looking Stocks are ringing major alarm bells and I have to say I'm returning to my original thoughts on this one....

Still, a very pretty Gun and even if the Major Collectors turn their discerning noses up at it; someone will be very happy to hang it on the Wall. I'll be watching the Classifieds closely!

Anyway, some more lovely snaps for my 'S&W Porn' Folder!!!

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Old 10-18-2016, 06:17 PM
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Those of us who had the pleasure of visiting the Far East, courtesy of Uncle Sam, circa 1940s & 50s, probably remember seeing the work of some of the Japanese engravers, which in a few cases could rank with the best available anywhere. However when you viewed examples, you had a "gut" feeling the work was attempted as a copy of the Nimschke or Young styles, as probably requested by their customers. I don't get that feeling with this Revenue Cutter gun. It's more the"New York" style to me, and I don't see any facts that point to "period" work, as Sal hopes. Period being the 1880s-1890s era. This gun was US Property, probably for sometime while in the Revenue Service before it changed ownership as surplus property, so the engraving would have had to occur subsequent to US ownership. Assuming the ivory stocks were added at the time of the engraving, a DNA test would date them. A search of the National Archives for the records of the Revenue Cutters may reveal to which cutter the gun was assigned and how long it was in the inventory of small arms of that cutter. Ed.
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Old 10-18-2016, 06:50 PM
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Thumbs up Latest Update...(Thanks To All For Comments/Opinions)

I just spoke to my friend who owns this revolver, and he is going to take it further and will be requesting Smith&Wesson Historical Foundation information to clarify if the Captain's name was Moon (as the S&W Factory Letter stated), or Moore that has been suggested on this thread. My friend did tell me that he believes that it was Moon, as from what he was able to find doing his own research, that Captain Moon was from the area he lives and that it might be the revolver never left that area. I will continue to give updates as information comes forward. Once everything is as clear as possible as to the provenance of this revolver, my friend will then decide whether to sell this outright, or put it up for sale through an auction house. Again, Thanks to all of you for sharing whatever information you have shed regarding this interesting, unique revolver....stand by for more info as it becomes available.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:27 PM
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Roy's letter did not reference any "target" configuration so I would assume the rear sight was replaced with a target version at some point. Are there any numbers stamped on the bottom of the rear sight?

B. Mower
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Old 10-19-2016, 02:17 PM
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Something I noticed when doing a side by side compare with a NY engraved pistol is the lack of border along the frame edges. Notice how the scroll work on the blue pistol extends all the way to the frame edges, particularly on the frame bottom between the grip and lower frame pins. I would think those edge cuts would show some type of wear and I see absolutely none on those high spots.

Every vintage NY engraved S@W I have looked at has had some type of hard border around the frame to prevent the scroll work from running "off the edges"

Thoughts?
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Old 11-02-2016, 12:48 PM
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Wow! That's a beauty.
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Old 11-03-2016, 09:09 AM
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Have you or your friend checked the whole gun using a jewelers loupe or a magnifying glass? Many times engravers would hide some identifying initials or some other such marking to label their work. According to Roy, engravers were not allowed to sign their work at S&W so many times they would hide very tiny initials in the engraving that could only be discovered under very very close examination.

Even if the gun were reworked outside of the factory, some collectors would still be interested since it was a Cutter Gun and even more so if a well respected engraver did all of the scratch work.
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Old 11-03-2016, 04:04 PM
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Have you or your friend checked the whole gun using a jewelers loupe or a magnifying glass? Many times engravers would hide some identifying initials or some other such marking to label their work. According to Roy, engravers were not allowed to sign their work at S&W so many times they would hide very tiny initials in the engraving that could only be discovered under very very close examination.

Even if the gun were reworked outside of the factory, some collectors would still be interested since it was a Cutter Gun and even more so if a well respected engraver did all of the scratch work.
I have only seen the same pictures I have posted for all of you. I asked my friend (who is a jeweler) to see if there were any types of engravers marks etc, and he said he wasn't able to find anything. He is still waiting on the S&W Historical Foundation research information. As soon as I hear from him, the information will be posted for all to see. We both appreciate all the interest and comments in regards to this revolver...stay tuned.
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:31 AM
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Unhappy Update (Not Good)

My friend notified me that he received word from the S&WHF today 1/19/17 that their records don't go back far enough to have any further information on his Model 3 44 Russian. It will be up to my friend to decide as to how he will sell the revolver and for what price. I'll keep you posted.
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Those of us who had the pleasure of visiting the Far East, courtesy of Uncle Sam, circa 1940s & 50s, probably remember seeing the work of some of the Japanese engravers, which in a few cases could rank with the best available anywhere. However when you viewed examples, you had a "gut" feeling the work was attempted as a copy of the Nimschke or Young styles, as probably requested by their customers. I don't get that feeling with this Revenue Cutter gun. It's more the"New York" style to me, and I don't see any facts that point to "period" work, as Sal hopes. Period being the 1880s-1890s era. This gun was US Property, probably for sometime while in the Revenue Service before it changed ownership as surplus property, so the engraving would have had to occur subsequent to US ownership. Assuming the ivory stocks were added at the time of the engraving, a DNA test would date them. A search of the National Archives for the records of the Revenue Cutters may reveal to which cutter the gun was assigned and how long it was in the inventory of small arms of that cutter. Ed.
It has been so long since this original post that I near forgot about it. The member posting the pix MODEL39, is a long time S&WCA member. Both I and Mike Tait (RIP) purchased several items from him in the past. He has always been 100%+.

That this gun is not in his actual possession, he is just relating information and pictures supplied him by someone he trusts to be honest and forthright. However, the actual owner knows very little to nothing about this particular gun other than how it came to his possession.

Speculation and guesswork have no validity here. We have valid research of a letter from Roy that it is a RCS purchased revolver. If we go a bit further with some higher tech forensic investigation and research / comparisons to other known styles ... it is still speculation and guesswork.

This is either a very fine example worthy of a S&W exhibition sometime in the past or it was just a nice older gun that someone invested some money into for engraving and finish work sometime (as it seems ) within the past 40 years or so, I feel.

Without a physical examination by someone with serious experience in the New Model 3s ... and ... engraving, it is still all just speculation.

It also doesn't make sense that someone would knowingly take a RCS revolver, having a set value by scarcity, if they knew it WAS a RCS revolver, to have a modern restoration of period style unless it was verified as owned by a notable person in history.

Had this been a presentation by S&W to someone who controlled the US Govt orders, then it would make better sense to me.

In conclusion, this is likely a recent (within the past 40 years or so) restoration or an older, period engraved revolver that had been recently refinished / restored.

If is was period engraved and recently refinished / restored there are many little odds and ends I could make and exception for that I would not usually accept.

I usually go by a 3 strike rule when considering to purchase an older piece, especially when it gets in to SERIOUS dollars.

I would allow 1, minor inconsistency (e.g. an un-numbered or wrong number latch). Perhaps I could allow 2 inconsistencies if it is a scarcer model, but now I'm looking even harder for other evidence of perhaps a skillful deception.

When it hits 3 inconsistencies ... then it's time to walk away.

STILL, there are times when you hit the 3 strike and you're still drawn to it.

That's the dreamer in us all, imagining we went swimming in shallow water and found a Spanish Galleon spilling over with gold after we step on a piece of discarded iron.

I would very much like to examine this one ... or better ... have the owner send it to Roy for an evaluation. There's no one that knows better than Roy.
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