Hello,

I wonder if anyone can possibly help with a little info on my first foray into S&W collecting.

What I believe I have is a First Model Double Action Revolver. It is a top-break, has a 4” barrel and fixed sights. It is in 44 Russian calibre and the serial no. is 24149.

Although mostly, handguns of any sort are banned in Britain, it qualifies for legal ownership in the UK as antique/obsolete as allowed by Section 58(2) of our Firearms Act, so I'd be really happy to know anything at all that you knowledgeable folks can tell me about it. An idea of when it was made would be particularly great.

Thanks.

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	44Rus1.jpg (133.1 KB, 95 views)
	44Rus2.jpg (131.2 KB, 87 views)

Man, that thing is slick!! I dont know much about them. Can we get a pic of the top of the rib on the barrel?

Yes, it is nice, isn't it! I have to pop out for a little while, but I'll get the picture you wanted asap once I get back. Thanks for the interest....you do meet the nicest folk here.

Welcome to the forum.

That is a real beauty and the condition is excellent. Where does one find such a gem in your country especially after most were taken away by the government?

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James Redfield
LM #497

Here's the top of the rib photo as promised.

It is not easy, certainly. Antique and obsolete calibre collecting is a relatively tiny hobby interest here, but still popular enough to support a small network of dealers and some auction rooms too. Some of the dealers are very good, some very bad, and most somewhere in between (as with most things in life). I have fortunately managed to come across three in particular who are very fair and honest, from whom I will happily buy and buy - and only one whom I will never touch again until long after Hell freezes over! Good odds I think.

Such lovelies as this are not at all common, and I'm told they become harder to find by the year, and more and more expensive as a result. I was very lucky, and have been waiting a long time to find it.

Because of the rarity of all arms that can be held on the obsolete calibre list, and the fact that they are the only ones that can be held 'live' legally in the UK, the price in GBPs is pretty high (which is why deactivated guns have a bigger market share amid British collectors). As an aside, you may not hold ammunition or look as if you intend to make it for any of the antique/obsolete guns you own, though obviously inert rounds are mostly OK (though sometimes there are even questions asked over these). It leads to the slightly strange scenario where for instance, you could legally display a 10-bore shotgun (so long as it was of pre 1939 manufacture) over your fireplace (i.e. not in a steel safe as required by law otherwise) OR you can legally own (but not buy without a certificate) live 10 bore ammunition - BUT not both at the same time!

Shooting an antique gun would require you to apply for a certificate, which would be OK for flintlocks and cap and ball, but cartridge firing handguns of all kinds of course, remain banned in the UK, so although that might work for old shotguns and bolt-action rifles, it wouldn't in this case (and obviously I have absolutely no intention of doing anything illegal).

Ye gods, sorry, this went on a bit. I'll shut up now.

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44Rus3.jpg (185.0 KB, 54 views)

Out of curiosity, and if you don't wish to disclose I will understand, how many dollars American would it take to purchase a gun like that in your country?

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James Redfield
LM #497

Thanks for the picture. That is the shortest barrel I have seen (I am not an expert on antiques) and was curious if the whole legend was on the rib or not.

My initial impression from your 2 nice photos, it seems to be in excellent condition. It is a .44 Double Action First Model, often improperly called a New Model 3 Double action. To the best of my knowledge, all frame were manufactured prior to 1899, which qualifies it as an antique in U.S. regulations, too.

A common problem with these were, as they were the first attempt at a .44 Double action, the mechanics is kind of clunky. There is one notch on the pullback to un-clasp the barrel to load and / or unload, then there is just one more click, all the way back. This second click (all the way back) often wears prematurely. To test, make sure it is EMPTY .... then pull the hammer all the way back, after which you push forward with your thumbs on the back of the hammer to see if it will "push off".

Another issue that might occur if you try to use it, the trigger return spring is a V shaped piece of spring steel which gets brittle over the years. The few that I have had that I actually shot, 2 broke the trigger return spring after a few live rounds through it. These springs are difficult to find and usually in no better condition that the one you might be replacing except it hasn't yet broken. I found a spring for one and I made a spring for another ... the latter is something I will not do again as it took hours and hours of labor trimming down and buffing with rouge a much larger but same type spring from a shotgun to thin it to the correct tension, that it was the correct phsyical size and the proper tension that it worked appropriately in the gun.

As it could be a bit gummy inside, spraying a little lubricant down into the hammer pivot and mechanics area (with the hammer back) would be a good idea. Also a few dabs of lubricant when upside down in the trigger area, front & rear of trigger. A few dabs at the pivot area, and lastly, a few dabs on the extractor rod before it snaps back down at full extent.

If it does not push off and the double action is in good shape, the barrel catch when snapped shut is tight (no wiggle between the barrel and frame) when closed and it has not been restored or refinished, you have a nice, respectable, collectible S&W there.

Feel free to contact me via the "email" button on my profile on this forum if you need any more specific advice.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

First of all, a very big 'thank you' for that incredibly detailed and helpful advice model3sw, and I'll gratefully bear your kind offer of more help in mind for the future.

I'm happy to report that everything seems to be working as it should, tight, no wiggle and no pushing off. Thanks for the warning re. the trigger spring too. I have a Belgian 'knock off' of the S&W top-break design in 320 British (much , much poorer condition) that has a broken return spring (despite promises from the dealer that everything functioned as it should - but hey, I liked the gun anyway!). I'll also lubricate those areas as per your advice.

I really am most grateful to you for sharing your knowledge with me; thanks a lot.

As a general rule, you don't see anything much under £2,000 GBP (roughly $2,600 USD at today's post-Brexit rate of 1.3 USD to 1GBP), though some dealers might easily charge double that - so if you do see one you want at a good price, you can't delay too long! Quite battered examples (which account for much of what is available) are seldom less than about 1,500 USD, while Spanish copies go for around 1,000 USD. If you are interested a quick glance at prestigearms.co.uk/forsale.htm will give you a pretty good idea (quick disclaimer - I have no connection with this business, nor have I ever had any dealings with it).

For many years the vagaries of British legislation over what legally constitutes an obsolete calibre meant that S&W in 44 Russian were particularly prized as one of the few what you might call 'modern-looking' revolvers available. Otherwise your choices were largely limited to the likes of the St Etienne Model 1873 or the Reichsrevolvers although a few other models qualified too, such as the Dutch KNIL. Within the last year or two the 41 Colt calibre has been put on the 'obsolete' list by the Home Office, so that has opened up more options, but for the most part S&W 44s still seem to be holding their price.

Hope that helps.

Sorry, should have said - I absolutely do not intend to fire it.

Quite aside of fearing to do harm to such a lovely old piece (even before I knew about your spring warnings) UK law being what it is, even having viable ammo for it, never mind firing it, would land me in a whole heap of trouble with the boys-in-blue and quite probably at least 5 years detained at "Her Majesty's pleasure". Being a sensitive little soul who values my freedom, I shan't be doing that anytime EVER!

Hope that doesn't sound too much like sacrilege to any and all those who (quite legitimately) can and do shoot theirs on your side of the water.

Welcome oldbrit!! As an Aussie, I know all about crazy Laws and a complete absence of any Right to own anything more dangerous than a Toaster, so I can fully appreciate just how special what you have there is in merry ole england.
BTW, that is a very nice 44 DA you have there and I would think any S&W would be very rare there as Webley would have had the Market well and truly sewn up and most of the US origin Imports would have been Colts because of the Establishment of the London Factory giving him a 'Name' so to speak. A lot of the Guns we got here came through England and are either London or Birmingham Prooved. Most US origin 19th Century guns here are London Proved which to me, adds a little bit of uniqueness to already historical Artifacts.

I cant see any Proof Marks on your Smith which says to me it is a recent Import. Do you know any of its History?

Nicely put, but I hear they're thinking about banning them too, or at least any that have a capacity of more than 3 slices

I had a lovely time in your part of the world December 1991 and into 1992, but I think it was sometime after then that the whole gun banning thing went a bit "British" with you. Oh for the good old days, eh? Hard to imagine 100 years ago kids at schools were taught how to fire machine guns as part of their army cadet training. Mind you, given the shindig in France at the time, it didn't really work out too well for many of them once they left school!

No, there are none on it - and it's history is something I'm trying to piece together, hopefully with a little help from the knowledgeable folk here. I'll let you know how it goes.

You have a very nice 44 DA. I had occasion to study the UK gun laws a three years ago when selling a 44 DA. I had a buyer that wanted to purchase the gun and was in the UK. Well, I ended up selling him four 44 S&Ws to him and found the process of exporting two 44, two 44 Russians, and a 44 SA quite simple. After completing the paperwork, I shipped them off and the buyer picked up the process on his end without difficulty. No problem exporting antiques from the US and they all cleared UK customs without issues. I have sold Beaumonts and Vetterlis to the Netherlands & Italy without issue as well, and the buyers state prices in the US are very low and even with high shipping costs, they are paying a fraction of the cost of purchasing one in their country.

The UK buyer paid my asking prices without issue and told me that the guns were worth at least 2X what he paid for them in the UK. What surprises me is that there are not more Brits buying these guns??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That is most interesting to know.

After hearing what you say, here's one Brit that certainly might well consider doing just that! I had largely assumed that it would involve hideous amounts of problems with HM Customs, so that's great news. Thanks.

I understand and empathize with your situation there on the other side of the pond. I can go as far as to say that I, and many other collectors here in the USA, were appalled when some years back almost all firearms were outlawed in England and Australia. Is there no remedy for this such as obtaining a target or sportsman / hunting permit (as if professional or Olympic training) or antique arms dealer's license, etc. ?

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

There are some allowed forms of gun ownership, but please bear in mind I'm not a lawyer, so this is just my understanding of the situation. Basically:

Air rifles (under 12ftlbs) and pistols (under 6ftlbs) - no licence but restrictions on age and supervision. A big concession a few years back was CO2 weapons counted as airguns (when I was a kid they were prohibited in the same class as full auto macine guns!) This is England and Wales - Scotland has just introduced a licensing scheme for airguns (for some reason, shooting toddlers with airguns seems to be surprisingly common up there).

Handguns - totally banned except for some kinds of really long barelled things that make the buntline look like a snubby! Basically a rifle and you need a firearms certificate for this (FAC - and club membership) Two shot restricted revolvers allowed as humane killers also on a FAC with a good reason i.e. vet, slaughterman etc. Cap and ball revolvers allowed (FAC - and club membership) and if using real black powder you also need a separate explosives certificate.

Rifles - 22 rimfire semi autos, FAC + membership or good use (farm pest control etc)

Other rifles - cartridge or black powder types, FAC etc for single shots, bolt actions etc semi-autos not permitted, and I think there's a magazine ruling too on capacity, but I'm not sure.

All smoothbores below 24inch barrel and/or with 3+ shot capacity = FAC. Other smoothbores can be held on a shotgun certificate (easier to get and keep than FAC, but still not what you'd call a cake walk).

All except airguns come with security conditions (cabinets, dismantled when not in use, no ammo stores with guns that kind of thing,+ serious penalties and loss of licence if you don't comply). All guns' serial numbers/description registered with the police. Certificates of either sort are not easily obtained and there is a general move to reduce private gun ownership of all sorts (and the stats show that the numbers of certificate holders keep falling).

Having shot handgun before the ban I gave up shotgun shooting too about 15 years ago when the red-tape was getting too much, and now collect under the antique and obsolete laws, which permit legal ownership of guns that are not deemed to be likely to cause a threat to society (i.e you can't easily get the ammo).

Our Olympic rifle shooters and shotgunners can train here OK, but our pistol shooters (other than airpistol) have to go to France!

Sorry didn't mean to go on quite that much, but I hope that paints the broad picture for you, but as I said, I claim no definitive understanding of the legislation, so please forgive any errors that may come to light.

OldBrit:

I gave you a "like", but not because I "like" the appalling situation that exists there. This is what some folks would like to see happen here in the States, and only constant vigilance by folks like those participating here will prevent us from joining you in this insane position. Our best wishes and sympathy go out to you.

Best Regards, Les

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SWCA 3084, SWHF 495, PGCA 3064

I recall that my buyer had some type of license, but I forgot which one he needed for purchasing obsolete caliber antiques. There is lots of reading required in the attached document, but it does state that Model 3 S&Ws in 44 American and 44 Russian calibers are still considered antiques in obsolete calibers.

There is not much on importation in this document, but I am sure you can find other sources to research importing antiques into the UK. Good luck.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...l_2016_v20.pdf

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I hope you guys in the US never have to put up with crazy Laws like we have in Australia or the UK.

Welcome aboard, OldBrit, and thanks for your clear and nicely phrased account of what it's like to try to own guns in the UK. Which is to say, complicated and damned expensive. The prices you quoted unhinged my jaw.

I hope you'll stay with us. This is a fine, informative, congenial and often hilariously odd place to hang out.

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Oh well, what the hell.

Too kind, too kind!

I have a feeling I will be lingering long here - the place has a very fine feel to it.