I would like to know year of production for S&W 1st model, with a serial no.254, last patent date July 25,71. It also has the WF&CO.'S EX and the number 254 stamped on flat part along the barrel. Just above this marking is a stamped-SCHOFIELDS PAT APR,22d 1873. Also barrel is 5''. Also is it possible to find out when or if this revolver was issued out, and if so where and to who. A huge bunch of ifs, can you help?

Welcome to the Forum. S&W did not keep any records of when the Schofield models were made or shipped, and if you request a factory historical letter for a Schofield ( US Military model ) it will list the invoice date on the bill sent to the Springfield Armory for guns shipped to the US Gov't. circa 1875-76. The Archives of the Armory lists guns by serial numbers according to each numbered crate of guns received from S&W and the Springfield Research Service has published lists of Schofields as recorded in the inventory of individual US Army regiments, etc. Beware there are many faked Wells Fargo stampings on Schofields. There are only two legitimate style stampings known to collectors, plus some collectors have a copy of the Wells Fargo list, by serial number, of the Schofields sold off as surplus by Wells Fargo 100 yrs. ago. If you can post some clear photos of the markings on your gun, we can make a judgement on their authenticity. Ed.

If you're putting up serious money to purchase this revolver, I recommend you have the Wells Fargo markings examined to determine if genuine or fake. (the WF Co stamp, not the Schofield)

Until the 1970s a Wells Fargo marked Schofield had a lesser value than the same (shortened to 5") barrel, NON-Wells Fargo marked revolvers. Somewhere in the 1980s the values about leveled out. From the 1990s forward, the Wells Fargo stamped Schofields took the lead in value above the non-WF marked. This is when fake Wells Fargo markings started to show up more than genuine Wells Fargo markings.

Genuine Wells Fargo Schofields are difficult to find. To find one in better condition is even more difficult as they are usually pretty well battered. I would be more suspicious if it were in too fine of a condition.

Wells Fargo armorers did much more than just stamp the side W.F. & Co. Very few collectors (except those who have studied and examined these in depth) realize it was more than just adding the W.F. & Co stamp.

Recently on a search I found, what appeared to be 2 different guns of the same serial number 823 Wells Fargo Schofields. One that had recently sold and one that was still for sale at a reputable seller but has been peened at the serial number as if to appear as used for hammering nails. I cannot attest to either of them being genuine.

>>> REVISION: forensic examination of the best photos I had saved and sent to Charles Pate, on 2/10/18 revealed the 2 were one and the same gun even though the photos of the 2 stamps looked so different, it was photographic techniques that lacked. This leaves only the issue of an illegible serial number on the butt as the only suspicious item concerning these. (see added photo of butt)

This reinforces the caution that any S&W or a higher value, but especially those KNOWN to a favorite of scammers, e.g. the Wells Fargo Schofield, the AirCrewman (probably the AirCrewman "the" most faked S&W) must be examined, in hand.

PS: that one sold in the mid 2000s for $8K (appx) by a major, respected dealer, then again a few years later to another major, respected dealer in the $6k range and IIRC Cabellas was asking appx $4,200. I find that curious but the "decision" is in. If anyone can prove me mistaken, I'm honored it was Charles Pate.

Curious is, that while the price of Schofields, especially "genuine, verified" Wells Fargos ... why did the sale price of this one go DOWN with every sale when it should have gone UP ?

Without physical inspection, using just photographs (knowing what a fantastic world it is and the "enhancements" available with Adobe Photoshop, I choose to have it "in hand" before a purchase or the word of a reliable seller with a standard inspection / return agreement in place. <<< Revision END

I own Wells Fargo Schofield in the 10xx range. Not only authenticated thorough examination, it letters to have been refinished by S&W in July 1945 having the finish changed to nickel, with the additional statement that "at that time the barrel had already been shortened to 5 inches and it had marked Wells Fargo". Yes there is a * in the serial number and the left grip frame is marked: 7.45 (representing July 1945)

There are truly more fake Wells Fargo Schofields than genuine Wells Fargo Schofields. (that note in the Blue Book of Gun Values is one I added about 15 years ago).

Pictures might help, however, pictures alone cannot verify the WF & Co stamp to be authentic.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

I am referring to opoefc posting; "some collectors have a copy of the Wells Fargo list, by serial number, of the Schofields sold off as surplus by Wells Fargo 100 yrs. ago".
If any of members of this great Forum would post that list, it would be very much appreciated and maybe prevent fellow collectors from wasting money on fake Wells Fargos.

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Petter
S&WCA 1759

If such list exists, I'd very much like to see it, too. If it comes from Ed (opoefc) it has to be real. I surmise it might be an accumulation of notes or a collection of notes composed and combined by serious collectors as I cannot reason with such an "official" list existing outside of the Wells Fargo armorers' ledger or combined ledgers of all W.F. armorers.

IIRC Wells Fargo purchased mostly the shorten S&W Schofields only after the entire remaining U.S. inventory had been surplus-ed sold off to SH&G, Bannermans, and a few other large suppliers who reconditioned (very professionally) customized some to 5" and resold them.

I have mostly encountered and examined 1st model Schofield / Wells Fargo. I have not ever examined a 2nd model Schofield with W.F. markings thus will remain neutral on those.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Years ago, a very reputable dealer showed me a list on a Well Fargo ( New York City office ) letterhead listing, by serial number, a large assortment of firearms that Well Fargo was disposing of as surplus to their needs. He also had Bills of Sale for many of the guns purchased from that sale. It included Colts, Winchesters, S&Ws, etc. and I had a copy in my gun store in the 60s. He advised me that copies of the list should not be published as fakers would then alter serial numbers on guns and stamp them W.F.& Co. Ex, to match the listed guns. Established locations of Wells Fargo facilities were issued firearms by the company, marked as property of W.F.& Co. Ex. Isolated locations, such as stage stops in back country areas sometimes provided their own firearms, which may be crudely marked Wells Fargo, however provenance for such weapons is seldom impeccable . As Sal points out, a duplicate serial number Schofield gives one serious doubt and the Armory Archives lists of the Schofields in the crates received from S&W does not show any duplicated numbers, to my recollection. A certain well known to all of us, S&W collector, has a wooden crate of mint, in the grease, Schofields revolvers, as acquired some yrs. ago from Bannermans for about $5. He uses it as a foot rest when seated at his desk. I lifted a corner of the wooden lid to see the contents and offered to clean all the guns, no charge. He didn't accept my generous offer! Darn ! A currently prominent gun writer/author has a project on the back burner for an in depth book on the Schofields, and has been collecting relevant material for some time. Hopefully he can convince a publisher that such a volume would sell. Many years ago, I made a gun trade and briefly became the owner of a Schofield Wells Fargo, serial number !. The gun later went through several hands and is now on loan to the NRA National Fire Arms museum, where you may ask Mr. Jim Supica, Director, to see it next time you visit. Ed.

"If it comes from Ed (opoefc) it has to be real."

That's because Ed was THERE when the list was drawn up.

Are you going to the Charlotte meeting, Ed? I'd like to shake your hand again. I'm bad to tease and you're such a good sport.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Hey ... stop razzing my DAD !!

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Charlotte's a long, long way from my Man Cave, and the old mule team is getting long in tooth, so no guarantees at this time. Some say I should try the new fangled aeroplanes, but then I can't tote my pair of Bubba engraved Wells Fargo & Co. EX. Bbq T-Locks!

Hi Ed and gentleman, here are photos as requested. Revolver has some bluing and shows ware, but in good working condition. Hope these photo's help. Thanks all Ken



Click on URL for photos












IMG_2381_zpsg2mfpxvv.jpg Photo by holmken45ak | Photobucket

Ken, Do you have photos of the Wells Fargo stamping ? ( If correct, it will be on the right side of the barrel on the extractor housing, as shown in Sal's post above.) Ed.

Ed, sorry for the mix-up. Here's the other pictures of the Schofield.

Thanks, Holm

it's in vvg shape... and that worries me. I surely hope it is correct for you sir.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

Looks legit to me. A lot of Schofields show up in very nice condition, as I think most of them did not really get carried in the field that much. Many went directly from the Armory inventory to the various state militias, which promptly sold them to dealers. Ed.

That looks very nice. With all that finish at the frame/forcing cone and the loss being mostly on the barrel/muzzle tells me it was carried much more than fired.

Not experienced enough to judge authencity on the WF markings but I'd hate to think someone would falsly stamp such a nice pistol.

I don't see the US on the butt, I'm assuming WF bought civilian pistols as well?

Interesting. I for one am dubious whether there are any civilian First Model Schofields see Civilian First Model Schofield

Definitely a number of First Model Schofields had the US mark very lightly stamped, but even though the photo is not perfect it is enough to make it "very" suspect as not marked. The mark would be on the toe toward the trigger.

If this is a First Model Civilian and WF marked, it is an important example I think.

cb

I think it would be important to go over this gun closely for military inspection marks. Look in the cylinder flutes, rear of the cylinder, under the barrel just in front of the hinge and on the frame for small L and P marks or any other markings and report what you find.

I notice the Well Fargo markings are not the one the two examples shown in this post. Sal's gun has"WF & CO EX" and holm's gun has "WF & CO'S EX"; there is a "S" thats not present in Sal's gun. I would view the "WF & CO'S EX" marking as very suspicious.

B. Mower

I think the CO's with the round top ampersand is a bit more common, but I think accepted as authentic as is the CO with flat top ampersand. The Standard Catalog shows both as well as the variation with large numerals.

While at first glance it looks OK, there are a few items that seem inconsistent and a few other stray marks where they don't belong.

Get a well lit 2x or 3x magnifier to check every square millimeter of the butt. Ping and dings there get my suspicions up. In one section as far as I could magnify it before it "pixeled" out, seems like there is a stray tiny 5 near another puncture of some type as well as some very light traces of something. The US is not visible but likely because it was either worn off of lost during that banging that cause the hammer like pings on the bottom.

Needs to be sent to a proper authority for authentication. First and foremost check that ALL numbers match.. No biggie if the grips don't match as I surmise they won't as the damage to the butt numbered area does not flow to the grips.

The barrel, the catch and the front screw should all have the same SN. Those numbers cannot be seen with the barrel catch affixed to the barrel. . No biggie if one or both of the screws were replaced having a regular round shaft screw instead of the original screw with a flat area on the shaft with number there.

It needs to be authenticated unless you're OK with the way it is. If you paid a nice price for it, a letter of authentication is your safety and security on a true value. If the numbers do not match ... all the way through .. and / or the Wells Fargo Armorers numbered parts are not so marked, you would be entitled to either a full or partial refund if it was represented to you as a genuine WFS.

It had been taken apart (likely more than once) by someone other than the S&W Factory or W.F. Armorers by evidence of the screws damaged.

Should it be verified as a genuine WFS, then you're that much more ahead.

Don't hesitate to contact me should you need anything further. I currently own #10xx and have examined several over the past 10 years, and of those ... only 2 of the several had genuine WF Armorers markings, supplying the owners of those with a letter of authentication. One was a wearing nickel frame with the barrel having little ./ no nickel remaining and IT proved to be authentic, where at first glance I though not.

It is the detailed examination that will tell the tale. I'm rooting for you that it is a correct WFS. Good luck.

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425

Just wanted to share a photo, you can see someone had initialed this US model at some point. But the US marking is still clearly visible.

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Tom Graham SWCA #2303

Commercial ( civilian) 1st model Schofields are somewhat rare. I've never seen one, to my knowledge. Jinks tells me that he has the serial number(s) of the very few genuine specimens, but would not release those numbers because of potential fakes of them showing up. He also told me he once saw a 1st model civilian Schofield at a gun show years ago, that some one had added fake US stamps, thinking that would enhance the value. I think it would be highly unlikely that a civilian Schofield could have genuine W.F.&Co. stamps, as the civilian would letter to M.W.Robertson ( probably ), or could be one of the several Schofields that George Schofield is alleged to have acquired from S&W for friends and fellow officers. Both the stampings shown above, with and w/o the 's are correct. Ed.

Ed, I do agree that WF&CO stamps on a First Model Civilian would seem unusual because being out of military hands in the first place would not put them in the military surplus channel which was the primary source of material for the WF guns. But I certainly don't know the details of how WF pulled together their guns from the aftermarket, so I would at least assume it might be possible to get a civilian in their sweep.

As to whether Roy has serial numbers for these would be an important question, because that would suggest this gun could be helped by a factory letter. However, that is in conflict with what Roy wrote in the 1978 letter attached to my link in the post (#16) above, where he states there are no factory records that can identify a First Model Schofield Civilian by serial number. I still think the photos in this thread are interesting enough to warrant a careful look at the gun overall for all stamps and markings and especially if the normal L & P stamps were to be missing, a first hand examination by a very knowledgeable collector would be in order. But also in that same letter, Roy admits that a civilian could have some military inspection markings, so the gun remains of interest even then.

Do you think we should bother Roy with an opinion on these photos (and serial number) with a question over on the SWCA side of the forum? I hadn't thought so, because I thought the statement in his 1978 letter was still the case today.

cb

cb, I'm pretty sure it was after 1978 when, in a conversation with Roy at an annual meeting, he mentioned to me the info. I posted above about 1st model civilian guns, so he may have come across later info. in the records, after the 1978 letter. We can certainly ask him on the private Forum. If you think about it, if a 1st model civilian is defined as a Schofield shipped to a destination other than Springfield Armory, it should show up in the shipping ledger as such. There are no shipping ledgers for the US contract guns sent to the Armory, and that makes sense - why record a delivery of individual guns all to one destination to fullfill a contract ? You can prove delivery by the paid invoice. Yes, a civilian 1st model should have some inspector stamps, in fact, I would almost expect to see a full set but w/o the US stamp. A Schofield w/o any inspector stamps would have almost have to have been special made in the service dep't - not a likely event at the time. I also understand there are some Schofields that were test guns or prototypes, made to test Schofield's concepts. 0bviously they are not US contract guns, and might be considered as civilian or commercial guns, especially if they were sold off to a distributor later. What serial numbers they bear, I have no idea and I believe they were in.44 cal. Charlie Pate is considering a future book on the Schofields and has collected material and info. in preparation therefore for some years and we have compared notes often over time. He may well be a better source on whether there are 1st model civilians guns than anyone, except Roy. Ed.