Orientation of the model 1 1/2 cylinder stop spring

JSR III · #1 10-07-2016, 06:32 PM

Does anyone have a photo or diagram of the orientation of the cylinder stop spring? I pulled the three pins and cleaned everything and now can't remember which side is supposed to go up.

mmaher94087 · #2 10-07-2016, 08:24 PM

James,
The first pin closest to the barrel hinge is the pivot for the cylinder stop. The second pin from the hinge holds the ***oked' portion of the cylinder stop spring with the 'tail' of the spring curving up and exerting pressure on the rear portion of the cylinder stop that is closest to the barrel hinge and forward (towards the barrel) of the cylinder stop pivot. The third pin (closest to the hammer) only limits the travel up and down of the cylinder stop.

mmaher94087 · #3 10-07-2016, 09:41 PM

I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting very, very tired of this damned censorship. If I can't say HOOKED in quotes with out big brother looking over my shoulder.... What part of ***OKED" is the damned part that y'all object to?

JSR III · #4 10-08-2016, 02:57 AM

Mike I tried it that way and it doesn't seem to place any downward tension on the cylinder stop. If I am understanding the function of this whole mechanism, when reassembled the cylinder stop wants to be under tension pushing the stop through the frame where it can lock the cylinder rotation.

The rearward movement of the hammer raises the stop mechanism allowing the hand to push up on the cylinder ratchets and rotate the freed cylinder. As the hammer falls, it splits the striker and this action does not raise the stop and therefore the cylinder is held in position and aligned with the barrel while the cartridge rear face is being struck by the falling hammer.

So to summarize reassembly, the spring goes in first with the hooked portion forward with the tip up. The pin is inserted to hold it in place. (How do you hold the spring in place while tapping in the pin and not have the spring fall out?) The stop is installed next and the two remaining pins are installed. The front one being the hinge pin and the rear one limiting the upward movement of the stop.

After I do this, I am not getting downward tension and quite honestly I am not seeing how this spring applies that force.

Something is just not clicking here.

mmaher94087 · #5 10-08-2016, 11:48 AM

"..the spring goes in first with the hooked portion forward with the tip up." The spring goes in first under the middle pin with the flat leaf of the spring pointing forward toward the barrel and the curve or tip pointing up. The cylinder stop and pivot pin are next and the limiting pin last.

Installing the pin that holds the spring is a little tricky as it is so small. Start the pin in the frame just far enough to hold it. Put the spring in the recess (flat end pointing at the barrel and probably blocking the pivot pin hole for the cylinder stop) and tap the spring retaining pin home. When installing the cylinder stop it will be necessary to push it down in the slot to align the holes for the pivot pin.

JSR III · #6 10-08-2016, 05:07 PM

Quote:

When installing the cylinder stop it will be necessary to push it down in the slot to align the holes for the pivot pin.

That's the part that throws me with this whole mechanism. If one needs to push the cylinder stop down to get the pin in place, it seems logical the the spring is therefore pushing upward on the stop mechanism.

Where does the downward pressure come from that makes the actual stop portion protrude down through the frame and engage the cylinder notch thus locking it in place?

If you lift the stop mechanism at the rear near the hammer it should resist this upward effort and want to spring back down???????

mmaher94087 · #7 10-08-2016, 07:43 PM

James,
Please don't give up; we're getting closer. I'm beginning to think that your cylinder stop spring is broken (too short). The spring, when placed in the slot of the top strap and secured by the "**hook**" and pin should extend underneath AND IN FRONT OF the cylinder stop pin (the pin closest to the barrel hinge). With the spring in place, the long, flat curved end of the spring should push UP on the forward most end of the cylinder stop (on the barrel end of the cylinder stop). By pushing UP on that end; the cylinder stop pivots DOWN at the rear (hammer) end and locks the cylinder.

Ps. I'm looking for some drawings of the early stuff that was originally done by David Chicoine and his son. Great references.

JSR III · #8 10-08-2016, 10:15 PM

Mike, thanks for that. Ralph was kind enough to send me copies from David's book regarding the tip ups. Unfortunately, the only part left out of the diagram on the 1 1/2 is the cylinder stop spring.

So I took the only other dummies way out and took apart another 1 1/2 from my collection. I now understand the orientation and realize that the spring can be installed after the pin. I installed the pin and merely slid the spring tip under the pin and then installed the stop and front pin followed by the rear pin. Real simple when you know what to do.

OK, next challenge. How do you adjust the axle pin forward? I know that you need to soak the cylinder in your favorite rust breaking juice and turn the pin to get it to sit deeper in the frame dimple. The question is where do you find a spanner tool to fit the two pin holes. I understand that the older models had a screw slot that could be reached through the hole at the center of the cylinder ratchet. Those versions could be adjusted with a screw driver. But with the cylinder with the two pin holes in front, what is the solution?

I suppose that I could have someone that is good with metal make up some sort of a tool but thought that those that have dealt with this before might have a DIY answer.

mmaher94087 · #9 10-09-2016, 11:50 AM

I have never adjusted any of the Old Model 1 1/2 cylinder pins in my collection. However, I made a tool for a friend that consisted of a piece of steel tubing welded to a handle. The end of the tube was filed down such that there were two prongs or nibs that engaged the holes. The trick was finding the correct diameter tube as it had to be small enough to fit the diameter of the holes and fit over the axle. I believe I had to drill out the axle hole in the tube just a mite for clearance.

JSR III · #10 10-09-2016, 05:36 PM

Mike, as a carpenter, I am thinking that maybe a block of wood with two holes of appropriate size and spread drilled through with two finish nails slightly protruding might do the trick.

My only concern is whether the nails might be too soft and bend. Obviously as Dave Chicoine states in his book, the first operation is to soak the threads inside the cylinder with your favorite rust breaker.

I suppose that I could also try hardening the nails by heating and quenching but maybe it won't be necessary.

I'll try the wood block first and let you know if it works.

mmaher94087 · #11 10-09-2016, 07:56 PM

Aah, need is the Mother of invention. I'd skip the nails as they are too soft and I don't believe they can be hardened. For my money, I'd try a piece of piano wire that can be obtained at ACE Hardware or your local haunt in one foot (straight) lengths. A nice block of hardwood with the piano wire inserts and a relief hole for the axle just might work. As with any 140 year rusted part; soak and heat with a hair drier - and repeat ad nausea (my spell check sucks).

JSR III · #12 10-12-2016, 04:16 PM

Does anyone have a set of the old brass screwdrivers for the older guns? I asked Roy if he had ever seen a spanner wrench for this purpose and he thought maybe one had been included in the old brass tool kits. The problem being that initially there was a screw slot in the rear of the axle pin so the wrench would not have been necessary until the 1 1/2 new models came out.

jleiper · #13 10-12-2016, 07:03 PM

This was the brass screwdriver/wrench set sent with the Russian contracts.
SW No 3 tools detail 2.jpg

I'd like to see one as well!
Joe

mmaher94087 · #14 10-12-2016, 08:05 PM

There is a wrench depicted; "spanner" in the UK, I believe, but not what James is looking for.

JSR III · #15 10-13-2016, 02:04 PM

This appears to be unique to the tip ups and having just checked my model 2 army, it was not needed for those. It appears that this adjustment style was only found on the model 1 1/2 new model or second issue so very likely no tool was supplied????

walter o · #16 10-13-2016, 04:19 PM

The 2nd army is adjusted from the rear with a longer screw driver bit. .I have made a tool to use to turn the front cylinder pin a screwdriver bit with a slot cut in the center ,Cut with a Drimmel cut off abrasive wheel ,keeping the bit cool .It took about 6 weeks of alternating soaking in Kroil and a heat gun and all of a sudden it would turn .On the army I could not get it to move for the longest tint using the above approach, finally tried a hand held IMPACT hammer wrench trying to back the pin to the rear( light blows with a hammer) and it broke free I was then able to work it back and forth and clean out the threads.
Good luck and have patience little grashopper
walter o
" Everybody in the world is ignorant.....Just about different things."