I'm trying to figure out who JAB Jr. is, how I ended up with his Club Gun, and who's going to be the next owner.

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Very Very nice Single shot 3rd! It's 1250 #'s from my 3rd, dated July 1917. Yours is evidently a presentation model, or the original property of someone who was very proud of it. It appears to be in Pristine condition. I would almost venture to say possibly unfired?

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Thanks, It's in amazing condition. I doesn't even look like the side plate screws have ever been removed. I wonder if anyone recognizes the engraving style? Could it have been done at the factory? or Did a club get it engraved & refinished for a member?

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What a beautiful time capsule!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Club Gun Fan will be along shortly with more information if he has it.

If you don't already have one, a history letter may shed more light on its origin, and the original owner:

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Letter Process - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I have a letter dated Nov. 2012. It states there is no record of this gun in the 0 number book. It also states that the 0 number guns range from 01 - 0548. The serial number that is stamped on the front strap, does not look like 0 was added after the 7448. The latch has # 7488 stamped on the underside, and I can't find any numbers stamped on the barrel. The chamber is not an Olympic cut.

The 2012 letter is a little misleading, as there are zero prefix S&Ws going up to 6 digits on various lists. I do not see 07448 on any of the lists, however. It would be interesting to know if the single shot pistol, number 7448 is also "0pen on the books." There are about 1/2 doz. single shot zero prefix guns listed in the mid 1920s, all authorized by Vic. Wesson. for various individuals. None of whom are J.A.B.Jr. There are many zero prefix guns that show up in auctions and For Sale ads that do not appear on any of the zero number lists, so apparently diligence in record keeping was not a high priority for the Club guns. That syndrome may also have been affected by employees allowed to make their own guns from scrap parts and apply zero prefix numbers and since they were not factory Club guns, they are not listed in any zero prefix lists. J.A.B. Jr. may have been a factory employee who made the gun for himself. Check the employee roster for the 1920s for a J.A.B. Jr. The engraving on this gun looks like the type of engraving applied by factory engravers of the period and as shown in the S&W Engraving brochures. I have never seen a factory engraved Club gun, authorized by the factory. An employee made gun could easily have had some engraving added, however. Ed.

Is it possible the frame should have been 88 (like the # on the latch) but was stamped 48, so the 0 was added?
Could they add a 0 to the # and keep them perfectly aligned?
Does it look like the 8 is a double strike of some sort?
Is gun #7488 listed (the # on the latch)?
My guess was that the engraving was factory, because the JAB is where the S&W logo would normally be on the side plate.
Who would have records to "prove" if there was a JAB (Jr or Sr) working at S&W? How many people had access to the part of the shop that built 1891's, and did anyone have a last name that started with B?
Would the 7000 serial number put it in mid production, 1916?

"JAB jr," was my great uncle from Pittsburgh, PA. John Alexander Borkovic.
Please forward this lost family heirloom to me, poste haste. I will pay shipping. Yea, I wish.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

beautiful pistol.... I've never seen an engraved one before tonight. Here's hoping it proves to be all original & records are found to support it. I suspect that Ed might be correct about it being an employee's handgun... which would support your reasoning/logic about the missing S&W marking. Congratulations sir on the fine piece.

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be safe,enjoylife,journey well

I hope you find your gun history as interesting as one I had for many years before tracking down my monogram to Robert M. La Follette, Jr.

It will be interesting if your gun is confirmed as factory engraved, which I think likely, that both include monograms. I don't know the estimated number of factory engraved single shots (maybe Terry Wagner has a guess). But it would be interesting to guess at the percentage of those with monograms.

I had hijacked a thread a year or so to mention mine, so look a post 21 and 35 in this thread
22 Single shot

Since that time a good deal of research has been done on La Follette papers in the Library of Congress and personal letters from the senior Robert M. La Follette to his wife, Belle Case La Follette with references to discussions with Alf Rogers about "Bobby" wanting a revolver for his birthday and "ordering all the catalogs" make it very clear my pistol was ordered for RML, Jr as a present at about age 13. A six inch single shot seems to have been a good compromise because Alf thought a revolver would be too dangerous for the boy.

I checked out 21 & 35. It's a beautiful pistol, with a very cool story. I like the Idea that an employee may have built this one. I've spent many nights, after work, building my dream guns from parts & pieces I've collected, modified & re purposed. I can only imagine how proud he must have been when he gave it to Jr.

I highly doubt that we could find records for this gun. I own ten Zero numbered guns that won't letter. One was owned by a Smith & Wesson guard. His name is stamped on the back strap. I'd be more than happy to do a search of the records if you want, but, I can't promise anything.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation.

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Don Mundell

"Who would have the records to "prove" if there was a JAB (Jr. or Sr.) working at S&W?" (DFRNPR)

Based on my experience with exactly one gun (How's THAT for statistical credibility?!!), there are few if any records of (factory) personnel.

It's an M&P Model of 1902 1st Change Target. It was "---------delivered to Edward H. Burton, Shop, which would indicate that Mr. Burton was an employee--------". Roy took a very apparent and special interest in this gun, noting this person may have been involved in the design of the square butt. He went on to say he had conducted "----a search of the Springfield and area city directories---and can not find a listing for Mr. Edward H. Burton. However, in an early 1900 factory picture of the company foreman,-----------------------"---------there's an Edward H. Burt.

So----if/when any of you should happen upon anybody, anywhere, with the name of Burton or Burt-----------or something that might be mistaken for such, tell them I have their grandpappy's pistol---and I'm keeping it. (!!!)

Ralph Tremaine

The number on the barrel will be found at the rear of the barrel---inside the recess where the latch/sight lives.

The viewing procedure goes like this: Holding the gun open with the left hand---and holding the latch up with the left thumb----and holding a magnifying glass in the right hand---and holding a strong light between your teeth----the number (if any) will be found on the right hand side---unless it's a long number---or unless they started stamping it too far in---in which case it will start on the right side, and end on the left side.

Note that a certain amount of coordination of teeth and eyes is required.

RT

Ralph's on a roll today...

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

My Lord RT, Im not a contortionist. Plus, what do you do if you have no teeth. Just kidding. I just use a padded bench vise and my wife.
Good Post, and funny as Heck. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Mike:

Does your wife get upset about being clamped into the vice?

Now, the fact of the matter is: There is a magnifying glass with a light. This light is on the order of what was meant when the phrase "Let there be LIGHT!!" was uttered---don't be staring into it----takes THREE AA batteries---we're talking major league LIGHT here!!

It can be found at KASSOY.com (800 452 7769).

Check this out!! I (sort of) knew I could find this--------the part number is LA231. The name is (without taxing their imagination too much) "Magnifier Light". It has a 2" lens surrounded by 12 LED'S-----12!!!! It's 2X. It costs maybe $25. It's worth a bunch more---especially in those romantically illuminated gun shows.

Saves wear and tear on your teeth too.

Ralph Tremaine

Buff, Yes, I have to. She will not hold the light steady. Plus the vise is padded, no harm. Best

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Thanks for all the info, all you S&W fans are the best!
Ralph, that's the type of story I hope will be uncovered for this pistol.
Don, your help has been appreciated, & any new info would just add to the great story.
RT, I used a modified version of the flashlight, magnifying glass, peak under the latch method you described. Believe it or not.....there is a 07448 stamped right where you said it would be, on the inside, right side of the barrel. You made my day Sir, thank you very much.

Ralph, I had to read your post about Edward a couple times before it sank in. Could he be the builder? Would a foreman have 'smithing skills?
It's pretty cool, that Mr. Jinks took an interest in your gun. I spoke to him briefly, at SHOT when it was in Orlando a few years ago ('09?). I mentioned the pistol and letter. He said to submit a new letter request and maybe they could find something. Unfortunately they didn't. The letter came back the same as the one the previous owner had.

"Could he be the builder?" "Would a foreman have 'smithing skills?"

I guess the answer to each of these questions could be yes (theoretically at least)----depending upon what you mean by "builder" and "'smithing". At the most basic level, I suspect virtually all foremen could build/assemble any S&W product (of that era) from the pile of (fitted) parts. I know I can. Step it up one notch, and build/assemble any such product from a pile of unfitted parts, and the going gets tougher. Now I'm not so confident. I reckon SOME foremen could do it---do it well, and do it quickly. I, on the other hand, would like to think I could (but would rather not)---and I'm pretty sure it would take me a looooooooooong time. And I think I'd be in deep doo-doo without the back-up provided by a fair size pile of spare parts to replace those I'd screw up (at least once) before I got it right. Watching a skilled craftsman (never mind the particular craft) doing his thing is an education.

I once was involved in a racing incident where a competitor got a little behind in his steering. The left front corner was removed from my car, and the frame (a tubular steel weldment) was wopper-jawed----which is to say it didn't fit in the jig it was born in any longer. In a word, it was worthless. I put the frame on a car top carrier, and headed for its birthplace. They put it in the jig---that would be the one it didn't fit in anymore. The Boss Man came over, walked around this mangled mess, and said "Cut this, this, this and this."---referring to (three) particular steel tubes---three of probably thirty or more. His minion did as instructed.The frame moved (A LOT) with each cut. With the last cut, the frame settled right down into the jig just like it knew it was supposed to. Minion then proceeded to replace the three cut tubes. Done!! Perfect!! Total elapsed time from the start---45 minutes. I said Perfect---it wasn't really. One of the many tubes had a warp in it----it had been like that from the beginning. It wasn't really a problem, but it bugged me. I asked if they could fix it. The Boss Man asked for a torch. He heated the warped tube on one side---over maybe a quarter of its length, and then stepped back. The tube started to move. When it stopped moving, it was straight---perfectly straight. Total elapsed time? No more than 4-5 minutes----and he never laid a hand on it. "How'd you do that?!! Boss Man wasn't in to answering questions---preferring the Socratic method. "What happens when you heat a piece of metal?" There are no flies on me---I respond instantly: "It expands." "What happens when it cools?" Just as quickly, "It contracts." "How much does it contract?" "Uh?" (He had me there!!) "It contracts more than it expanded."---and he tapped his head with his finger. Tapping one's head with one's finger translates to: "Been there--done that----got the T-shirt!"

So it is---and was at S&W. Bottom Line: The real answer to your questions is more likely, Yeah, he could have been the builder; but he almost certainly was not. Similarly, some foremen would certainly have 'smithing skills, but they didn't use them at work. Did maybe some of them carry parts home in their lunch box---and build things? More than likely---but not frequently.

Ralph Tremaine

All of these what if's and maybe are fun, and here's the but, if this was engraved at Smith & Wesson, why are there no records. What if was built by a foreman who had engraving skills. What if it was done in someone's spare time. We can guess all day long, but, if there are no records, there are no records. It is same when we look up a serial number and there is no ship date. Where do you go from there? A serial number with no entry after it could mean many things, like was the number ever even used, was the gun scrapped. But, as in this case, there isn't a serial number entry to be found anywhere. I bought a .22 Straight Line Club Gun that was a presentation to a retiring Smith & Wesson employee by Victor Wesson. I bought it from the niece of the man who received it. Guess what, it won't letter. Why, because the serial number is on another Club Gun I own that was made in 1899. I could speculate as too why there are two Club Gun with the same number. Was this a prototype gun made 26 years before the Straight Line model was introduced? Unless someone finds a book of all the Zero number guns the story ends there.

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Don Mundell

As I have said a number of times about S&W's, "sometimes we just don't know what we don't know" and we probably never will.

S&W was in the business to make money and they did in fact make buckets full and still are. They were not as interested in what future collectors needed to know about every minute detail of every gun produced. Some of these mysteries will just remain mysteries.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Amen!
Joe

Lets get down to figuring out the "who's going to be the next owner" part. 😊

Regards,
Bruce

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Regards,
Bruce

I was asking to buy it three years ago when I was first asked about it.

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Don Mundell

Since Don is our resident lover of club guns, hence the handle, I suggest we start up a "GO FUND ME" page and buy the gun for Don for Christmas. I think that it is the least that we can do since Don is always willing to step up and help others.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Ok then.
I will put the kibosh on any more of my speculation. I enjoyed everyone's posts, & learned something new every day.
Ultimately I am trying to find out it's value. It was acquired as collateral on a loan, just because it is so friggin' COOL... but there is no sentimental attachment.
I'm not sure of the protocol here, can an actual $ values be discussed?
if so what does being;
un papered
engraved
(is there a record of the number of 3rd models, engraved?)
monogrammed
possibly (?) un fired
0 numbered (grip frame & barrel #'s match)
95% - 98% (?) condition
so, what does that add to the value of a "plane jane" 3rd model?
A few years ago I had the pleasure of finding Don on here. He has been a Huge help, educating me on the basics of club guns. I welcome his, and anyone else's evaluation, as to it's retail value.
I recently figured out that employee guns are a sort of sub sect of club guns. As a Gunsmith, I think they are the "coolest" Did the engraver barter with the fitter, who traded labor with the guy who did the polishing & blueing?? sorry I digress.......... speculation has officially ended.

Dave

I cannot offer a value, this one is beyond my realm of expertise. However, I am sure Don Mundell can come up with a value.

When you have determined a value, I think you should offer this for sale in the classifieds section of this forum. I am sure several who have read this post might be interested in your firearm.

James Addison Baker, Jr. (1892 - 1973) ?

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James Redfield
LM #497

DFRNPR,

I like the looks of your single shot!
The only other engraved single shot, that I have seen, is a first model with a somewhat same design. The picture is located on post 124 in the "show us your pictures of your top breaks"
Watching for yours to hit the block!
Terry Wagner

A few new photos

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am I missing anything important?

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	TOP STRAP OF BRL.jpg (26.9 KB, 64 views)
	MUZZLE & FRONT SIGHT.jpg (31.0 KB, 61 views)

so, Ive got a pistol with;
5915 on the ejector
7488 on the latch
07448 on the grip frame
07448 on the barrel
the rear sight notch was back cut, after it was Blued

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	LATCH 7448.jpg (74.7 KB, 71 views)
	GRIP FRAME # 07448.jpg (61.6 KB, 72 views)
	BRL # 07448.jpg (45.5 KB, 71 views)

a couple views of the rear sight notch

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	BRL LATCH & REAR SIGHT NOTCH.jpg (75.8 KB, 74 views)

It's been 3 months since I posted the last photos.
Unfortunately not even one "guess" as to it's value.
Does anyone have any experience with Rock Island Auctions?
I sent them the same photos, and they estimated the pre-auction value at $6,500-9,500.

My experience with RIA is all bad---some worse. I've articulated some/many of these incidents in the past, and given my Momma's admonition to keep shut if I don't have anything nice to say---and the fact I've already failed to heed that warning, I shall now try to observe it--to one degree or another.

An auction company's estimate of value to a prospective consignor may righteously be considered as an inducement to list with them. Accordingly it will be, shall we say, enthusiastic. The courage of my conviction on this topic is such that I'll bet you $1,000 your gun would fetch less than the estimate noted. Should you choose to list with this particular company, I'm tempted to also bet the value estimate subsequently listed in the catalog will be substantially less---this time to be considered as an inducement to potential bidders---to bid. In the event this strikes you as playing both sides of the street, that's the business they're in. RIA's success over the years, measured in dollars and cents is noteworthy. Their success in acquiring AND KEEPING satisfied clientele and buyers is likely considerably less noteworthy. The good news for them is there are a lot of fish in the ocean.

Watch out for the hooks.

Ralph Tremaine

Nobody is willing to have a stab at the Value?

Well, my SCSW (2007 Edition) says a 3rd Model is worth $1600 in EXC+ Cond. The Engraving has to add a Grand and whatever appreciation in the last 10 years adds on top of that. Maybe Single Shots have gone up a lot? Maybe not much? How does $3-4K sound?

I wasn't collecting 10 years ago so I don't know if prices are up. down or much the same.

I would guess prices are possibly up, but not very much. 2007 was still in the Boom time and there hadn't been a Global Financial Crisis yet; people had Discretionary Spending Money and were spending it. Now they are not so inclined to spend, but that doesn't stop the Dealers from trying to push prices higher and higher. The result is a Price Bubble and we all know what happens when it inevitably bursts.

I know there was a trend of Cap & Ball Colts years back getting very expensive and when the Market got so inflated that people stopped buying them; the Values plummeted and have never recovered.

Somebody who collects these will know. Obviously the Auction Houses want to inflate prices to increase Commission. Some will be more honest than others. Checking past Auction results will give you an idea; the Monogram and Engraving does make it unique, but there are a million Collectables out there with uniqueness.

The Gun is worth what someone will pay for it.

With Estimates; they will have a low that will attract Bidders and a High that will raise the hopes of the Seller.

Okay---value.

As noted above, SCSW 3 says $1600 for EXC+ which is absurdly low. Speaking of absurdly low, SCSW 4 says the same thing---giving entirely new meaning to the term absurd.

How about the engraving? Good stuff adds to the value. This is good stuff. How about this J.A.B. business---what does that do? Clearly it adds tremendously--------IF J.A.B. was SOMEBODY----and available provenance PROVED J.A.B WAS SOMEBODY. As it is (unless I've missed something), J.A.B. detracts from the value probably about as much as the engraving adds--AT LEAST----which is to say those initials are a deal breaker for me-----ME---ONLY. Bottom Line for ME: I wouldn't walk across the street to get it for nothing.

The good news: There are different strokes for different folks.

So here I am---siting and staring at this gorgeous gun. What am I going to do? I personally am going to drool some---first. Then I'm going to muse some about how to get rid of that J.A.B. business. Then I'm going to come back to the real world---and drive on-------unless my initials are J.A.B. Jr. Alas---they are not.

The value is exactly what somebody, somewhere is willing to pay. Given the FACTS attendant to THIS gun, the pool of somebodies is painfully small.

Period.

Ralph Tremaine

The good news is Don M. is attracted to this gun because his likes and dislikes are different from mine-----and he likely can get past this J.A.B. business---unless he's already figured out who he is. And in that case, he ain't going to say ONE WORD about it----until later.

I appreciate everyone opinion. I want to hear both the good & the bad, that is the only way to be truly informed.

Just a shot in the dark, trying to piece together those initials with a very rough time frame. This guy that I found has a similarity to another original Club Gun buyer that was discovered here recently. They both were Army ordnance specialists and they both Proofed weapons.

Could well be your JAB Jr; but as rct269 observed; unless JAB Jr is a notable person and it can be proved the Gun was his; the Initials add nothing to the Value and possibly detract from it.

There is a 2nd Model on GB right now with a 'Buy it now' of $1150.

If you have not already done so, the money spent on a letter may (or may not) shed more light on the gun. Three months is less than the current turn around time for one...

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Thanks, bigwheelzip. That could be him.
I have a letter the last owner got, 10/4/12. It's not in the Zero serial number book.
The Blue Book shows a 95% 3rd model at $2,000.
I figured the engraving could add 1K? or is that not a realistic #?
That's why even I thought the RIA number seemed crazy high.
Who would have access to the number of 3rd models that were factory engraved? opoefc mentioned that the engraving style looks similar to one in an S&W Engraving brochure. Is that something I could find on line?

I, like Ralph, would not trust an auction house that gives a $3000 spread. If the gun sells for more than the estimate, they look golden. If it doesn't, no skin off their nose. Over the years, I've purchased a number of guns. I can't recall any of them going over the high estimate. I think a lot of it has to do with the buyers premium of over 15%. Let us know what you eventually decide to do with it and how you plan to dispose of it. I know I'd be happy to place it in with my other Club Guns.

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Don Mundell

Check with Davial Carrol to see what he would do with such a gun? Also, I would recommend high end firearms auctioneers like James Julia, Amoskeag, Bonhams, Poulin, Cowan's, etc.

As for RIA, chances are that they would put the SS with a grouping of pocket pistols and split the proceeds among the owners! I do not like their sales tactics and grouping of guns in their auctions.

Forgot to add - your SS was certainly manufactured between 1910 through 1919 era and I have a copy of DB Wesson's Bullet Holes book, done in 1915. He chronicles competition target shooting in the US over this same era and the book lists many team shooters. None, however, matched your initials. The book is great fun to read and has several pictures of shooters and competitions. If you were going to keep the gun, it is a good read.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

1924 membership list of the United States Revolver Association only shows one name, maybe the same one James Redfield wrote, list shows under Connecticut: J. A. Baker Jr., P O Box 154, Rowayton Conn.

"The good news is Don M. is attracted to this gun because his likes and dislikes are different from mine-----and he likely can get past this J.A.B. business---unless he's already figured out who he is. And in that case, he ain't going to say ONE WORD about it----until later." Thanks Ralph, that doesn't say much for my reputation. Do you really think if I knew I wouldn't tell him who J.A.B.Jr was?

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Don Mundell