Hi everyone,
I just bought this nice blued and engraved Baby Russian with pearl grips.
Could you please tell me if the engraving looks like it was done in the factory ?
Thanks for your opinion.

Attached Images

2016-12-11_171728.jpg (80.0 KB, 397 views)

I'm glad you asked for opinions---I have a bunch of those. Definitive knowledge? Not so much.

The engraving itself strikes me as good quality---most certainly better than average, so initial knee-jerk reaction is it could be. Just sitting and staring at the pins suggests the gun has not been refinished (after)----which is to say it was engraved in the white/not assembled, and then finished-----which is most certainly the way the factory would have done it----as would anybody else if the gun was shipped in the white---to be returned for finishing---as was not all that uncommon----or so I'm told. That said, it could have been refinished (after) by someone who did it right.

So, add up the good stuff and take away the bad, and my opinion is yes.

Certain knowledge comes with a letter. Get one----it's the frosting on the cake.

Ralph Tremaine

While you're waiting on your letter (and it won't take long), perhaps some folks with certain knowledge will come along to support their opinions---which will be of higher quality than mine. Those folks will know the when of this gun----also the who of the factory engraver (s) at that time------------AND they will be familiar (enough) with that artist's/those artists' work to say yea or nay---they did it---or not.

You could get a factory letter on this one--and this is the only way to know for sure--but this revolver screams New York engraved to me, and, therefore, engraved after shipped into commerce.

Letters have been coming in 2 weeks!

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Didn't the factory send these early guns out for engraving? If so, it would most likely be New York style, BUT contracted by S&W and done before the gun was sold and should letter as such.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Typical New York dealer engraving. Ed.

Thanks for your opinions. I'll follow mrcvs's advice and get a factory letter, thought I think that the price asked for these is pretty high, especially for one living outside the U.S. like me !

Technically, the letters are no longer factory letters. Historical letters are provided through a "partnership" with the S&W Historical Foundation.

Going to the new S&W web site to find the letter request link is a little daunting.

__________________
James Redfield
LM #497

Not daunting at all if you use the download section at the top of this page. Make sure you send U S funds when asking for letter. Anything else will be sent back.
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian, Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation.

__________________
Don Mundell

Don, y'all should consider using Paypal or one of the other similar money transfer services. Would make it a lot easier for folks outside the USA.

__________________
Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

You're right, Wiregrassguy. The only way for people leaving outside the U.S. is to send cash through Western Union, and it adds to the cost of the letter which is already quite high (not counting the additional postal charges).

There are people who are critical of all sorts of services out there, but I have had PayPal for almost a decade and never had a problem. Super simple for an overseas buyer to deposit money in PayPal and it goes directly into my bank account. No waiting, no currency exchange issues, etc. Only requirement is that both the buyer and seller must have PayPal accounts. I would not be selling or buying internationally if it were not for PayPal.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I agree with you, Glowe, as I often use Paypal too. But the problem is that it is not a mean of payment accepted by the S&W Historical Foundation.

PayPal is one of the most accepted form of electronic fund transfer out there and SWHF should adopt something like this for foreign members. Why not PayPal?

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Je suis membre depuis plusieurs années et j'ai toujours envoyer du cash sans problème.
Les membres du swca sont formidables

I am a member for several years and I always have to send some cash with no problem at all.
The members of the swca are great people

__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

BTT;

Did we ever the letter verification on the engraving?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Books

If Ed says it is New York engraving, you can take it to the bank. Almost certain that it will not letter as factory engraved.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I don’t think Patbar is wanting to spend the $100 for the uncertain outcome from a factory letter. I tend to agree with him on this one.

I can’t get him to letter his Baltimore Police Baby Russian either and that one I’m pretty sure will letter as such.

I think that some collectors are satisfied with what they have and value $100 more than a gamble on a factory letter. Unless they are certain of the letters outcome and a guarantee it will letter as authentic.

The opinions from the forum seem somewhat divided.

There are antique guns that “will” obviously letter unless the records Are no longer available. Which seems to still cost $100. Many such examples exist. This engraved Baby Russian lettering? is pure gamble in my opinion.

Murph

On the other hand, I'll take knowledge over money anytime, and letter every gun I've ever had. I think of letters pretty much the same as frosting on cake------the finishing touch. It's even more than that every once in a while.

That every once in a while turned out like this on one letter----the last line reading "This is a very important revolver." The impact on the value of that gun was an eye-opener too.

Ralph Tremaine

rct269, for my part, I buy antique guns that are appealing to me and I don't care too much about their value since I don't intend to sell any of them.

Beside, I have quite a lot of guns and not only S&W's. If I wanted to letter all of them, I'd have to choose between this and buying a new gun for my collection. And I prefer the last.

I am a historian and to me the letters add to the value/interest of the piece.
I would not be in a hurry to letter a standard configured pistol (3 1/4", nickel w/black hard rubber stocks). Especially since most of them went to M.W. Robinson. (50% of my lettered pistols went to Robinson. Even the ones with U.S.X. markings and the Peruvian crest.)

but:
Longer barrels (5 or 6 inch or longer)
different stocks (red, pearl or ivory.)
engraved
probably deserve a letter.

Just my humble opinion.

Books

Anyway, are there really factory engraved Smith & Wessons, or where they all engraved by independent engravers ?

The one below was sold to me by a renowned European antique arms dealer as factory engraved, but when I first showed its photos on different forums, almost every body said it most surely wasn't.

Attached Images

S&W 38 SA grave droit.jpg (282.6 KB, 45 views)

On the other hand, I have bought many true "bargains" through the years that had a letter. I do not add money just because it has a letter stating it went to this or that distributor. Now if it was lettered to an individual, maybe - and if an important buyer, certainly. It only used to be $50 for a letter and I would certainly add no more than $100 to a purchase price, but only if I would letter it myself once purchased.

Don't get me wrong, I never discourage anyone from getting a historical letter, but in this case, the most respected engraving expert on this Forum states it was New York work and if that is the only reason why the owner would get the letter, why bother?

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I agree,
Also, Patbar.....I think the members collectively confirmed that Smith & Wesson contracted with the Young Family. I think we also confirmed that a specific type of engraving is proven to be Factory contract engraving. You can see that type of engraving on the post of the 44 DA engraved that lettered recently.

Some factory letters are mandatory in my opinion. I think a letter is mandatory for the Baltimore Police example and in my opinion shoots the value up if it confirms that gun was part of a special shipment to the known Distributor Baltimore Police supplier.

Also, short or long barrel variations and rare calibers I think should be lettered and the value of that letter is quite a bit in my opinion if the gun is in decent condition. Just to many variables to cover.

Engraved guns in my opinion must have some supporting evidence that it's a factory contracted engraving prior to applying for a letter. Perhaps someone else has one in the same serial number range that lettered? Then you compare the engraving to yours? Etc.

I honestly don't know of anyone that has that information on the Baby Russians. The 2nd SA model absolutely. I have one that is factory engraved with the Young style engraving and a letter to prove it but I would never have applied for a letter without knowing that the type of engraving on the gun is known and proven to be a factory contract engraving.


It just seems that the Baby Russian engraving found on most examples ( Those few that exist) depict New York Style which to me is impossible to tell if done on contract with the Factory or special order by a Distributor or even a private engraving performed on the side by an individual. All were likely the same engraver(s).
Also, considering that the Baby Russian was only manufactured for 2 years, most of the New York Style engraving would have been a M. Robinson performed engraving on contract. So, I would think that the short production period produced very few Factory Contract engravings, if any.

A factory letter also will not help value unless it's been performed via a factory contract. So without supporting evidence? You are extremely likely to find out Most if not all BABY Russians were shipped either blued with wood grips or nickel with hard rubber grips to a major distributor.

I personally have no knowledge of any "FACTORY ENGRAVED" baby Russians. The number must be very low!



Murph

Ok so if you search and search you will find that even the most elaborately engraved BABY RUSSIANS do not letter as Factory engraved. See photos.

There are plenty of claims out there but when lettered they all went to M. Robinson. Typically nickel finished with hard rubber grips and were engraved some time after that. If you look closely at the attached photo's? There is NO WAY to tell. The engraving is wonderfully done but NOT on Factory contract.



Murph

Attached Images

	E8F3E756-C37E-4943-B137-09A552E2A26F.jpg (45.7 KB, 36 views)
	D70711EC-BB18-43C6-B322-3A7B79A70D38.jpeg (94.0 KB, 39 views)
	1A1919AC-F8EE-4682-A83C-C0CACA4C9337.jpg (36.6 KB, 36 views)
	E2E0B416-F9B7-4AE3-9A6F-8BD38D52A9F2.jpg (58.5 KB, 33 views)
	248F97F0-1D78-4649-AF0D-18F4AC8AE319.jpg (33.6 KB, 37 views)

Here is one more example. Notice it also went to M. Robinson without engraving and was part of a very large shipment of 250 guns!

** NOTE: If you look at all the different styles of engraving on the photo's posted? All are drastically different in both pattern and style. NO two are alike but all went to M. Robinson. So I can't see how anyone can tell who did what on these Baby Russians.


Murph

Attached Images

	6ECE2B6E-A788-4B01-BB92-E68812A3AE5E.jpg (67.1 KB, 22 views)
	AF9DB22E-0416-4E82-9F5E-874A40C8F1C8.jpg (41.8 KB, 24 views)

Thanks for your photos, BMur ! The engraving shown are effectively very different !

As I understand, S&W only contracted with Young and possibly other engravers (they were not employees of the company). Thus, I don't see why a gun sent directly from the factory to the engraver should have more value than one first sent to a retailer who in turn sent it to the same engraver, the latter then not being "factory engraved".

To me, this is simply ridiculous as only the quality of the engraving should affect the value of a gun, whether factory engraved or not !

Great discussion.

I brought this one back up as I have just acquired an engraved "Baby Russian."

A few years ago I acquired a 2nd model DA .38 that had been engraved. I lettered it and, just like the letters BMur posted, it went to M.W. Robinson; who would have handled the engraving as part of a special order.

However; the newly acquired "Baby Russian" is MUCH nicer than the DA.
Although both would probably be classified as New York style.

Getting a factory letter is like buying a lottery ticket. Most of the time you just bought a piece of cardboard. But every once in a while....

Books

Gustave Young was certainly the most famous engraver in the late 1800s. I would consider his work as much more valuable than other engravers, especially those used by distributors who looked for the cheapest, not the best. The fact that the factory contracted with Young will show up in historical letters and has in the past. Most engraved guns from the factory were ordered that way in the first place, so factory records existed even if Young was a contractor.

Judging engraving quality is a far more complicated science than I am capable of, so to me it all looks kind of the same, which is one of the reasons why I do not collect engraved guns. The appeal for me for collecting firearms is the simplicity of design and quality of workmanship, rather than what someone does to embellish the surface. I can appreciate fine engraving workmanship, but am just not much interested in owning it.

For me, this is an example as one of Young's best works and makes distributor engraving look mediocre at best.

Attached Images

Young Engraving.jpg (76.1 KB, 31 views)

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

To me this subject is a huge part of what makes Antique gun collecting so much fun. Engraved guns are an enormous subject filled with many variables and pit falls as well.

When we discuss the quality of the engraving just posted by Glowe? This to me is an example of what the Super High dollar collector would target. Probably the upper 2% of collectors.
You see tables at gun shows and at auction houses with guns like these. I personally take a quick glance and keep walking because I know that I can't touch it from a price standpoint. I do occasionally follow these super high quality guns at auction and quite often they sell for way below the Auction Houses very high estimate.

Finding a buyer might be the most difficult part for a collector who has decided to sell. I've also heard and witnessed many times sellers taking significant losses on this type of high grade antique.

An example would be a cased and engraved presentation 60 Army selling for $140,000 at an auction in April of 2017 only to sell a year later for $68,000. I'd be a mess if I took a loss like that from an antique gun purchase. The reason there is such a variation in price is due to these extremely high dollar guns being impacted heavily by the World business Market. If the Market is in a dive when you decide to sell? Brace for shock.

However, collectors of this grade taking a $70,000 loss doesn't mean much to them. Often they are moving their investment to another part of the market during a down market in antiques so what they see and invest in and what we see are two totally different perceptions. Plus this type of loss for them is a write off. A year later they might be $250,000 ahead because they moved there investment dollars to a more lucrative market based on a tip from one of their super high dollar buddies! The rich get richer.

Also, these super high quality and likely presentation pieces absolutely MUST be lettered to achieve the optimum value for this level of collecting. Unless of course the seller has a very good "YARN" to tell that comes along with the gun. My advice to any purchase that comes with a "YARN" that has no solid provenance to back it up? "Walk away!


Murph