Trying to get a bit of info on it. Neat old pistol I came across for so little money I had to buy it. It is a break top and does fire in both SA and DA.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

I don't know those old pistols. Nice one. Someone will come along in the not too distant future and have the right answer.

Welcome.

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Mike
S&WCA #3065

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! The revolver is a 38 Double Action 4th Model that shipped around 1906. The star next to the serial number on the butt means that it went back to the factory for work. The date that it went back to the factory should be stamped on the side of the grip frame under the left grip panel in MM.YY format.

Guy

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Very cool thanks for the info. That's cool that they marked the ones they worked on in the past.

Think I'll order up some ammo and give it a test fire. Everything seems to be in fine working order the bore looks good to surprisingly.

Oh and I have been around for a year I just don't post much . This is my 3rd S&W, I also have a MP AR15-22, and a Shield .40 cal

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

I have one with a 5 inch barrel, not in as good external condition as yours. It was my grandfathers , mom said during the Great Depression , in East Texas , the family would have "starved slap to death" if it weren't for the small game he killed with it every day. Mainly jack rabbits and armadillo's . It came with two boxes of ammo so I took it to the range. It was fun to shoot, but those tiny sights left me wondering how he hit anything. I guess hunger helps your aim.
Enjoy shooting it , like going back to another era.
Gary
The tiny sights gave me fits

I can see how those sights will be annoying. I just ordered 4 boxes of PPU ammo for it.

I'm going to sit down in my little shop now and give it a good cleaning and lube.

I'm always a big fan of the classic weapons, antiques whatever you prefer to call them. I'm used to stumbling across old junk though not something classic and well made. It was a very pleasant surprise to find it was a Smith!

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

Welcome to the Forum. You might be interested to look for the date your 38DA went back to the factory? When you do your cleanup and carefully remove those old hard rubber stocks, look on the frame under the left stock and you will find some numbers that will represent the month and year the gun went back. It might look like 02 21 representing February 1921. Enjoy your trip to the range.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I have not pulled the grips yet as I have read that they can be very fragile. Want to be sure I know the tricks before I go after that, so I don't break them. So right now I'm doing some research on it.

She is a ton cleaner though now

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

The main problem people encounter is not knowing that there is a cross pin in the bottom of the butt-frame. The pin extends into the stocks to keep them aligned. If you take out the screw and pull on the top of the stock, you can break the bottom. When I remove these stocks, I loosen the screw until it just has a couple of threads engaged. While holding the top of the stock tight against the frame, tap on the screw head to loosen the stock on the other side. Pay attention that the screw does not push out the escutcheon. When that stock is off, turn the revolver over and while holding the top of that side against the frame, tap with a wood dowel at the inside bottom of the stock to loosen and remove that side.

If you have problems, try to place a single edge razor blade between the frame and the stock at the bottom and tap upward. The thin blade will not chip the stock and will remove it from the pin. Good luck.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It is very encouraging to see a resurgence in an interest in the turn of the century S&Ws. Some of these old girls are very interesting to acquire and study. Im trying to do my part. Best.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Another technique for loosening the grip panels if they stick is to rap the prawl (knuckle) of the backstrap with a wooden handle of, say, a hammer or screwdriver. The vibration will loosen the panel from the frame. That is the same technique for removing the sideplate.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thanks for the tips gentlemen, I'll be out in the shop again tonight to clean up a few other weapons that had a trip to the range today. So I will give those grips a go then.

I have to admit I am really curious how many years ago it was that the revolver made it's trip to smith for work.

I love all the old weapons, just not common for me to stumble across one. I have a couple other old ones but this one is definitely the most senior citizen of my safe.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

Probably the most popular of the early S&W top breaks. Yours is not actually an antique, being from later than 1898. You will find these are not particularly pleasant to shoot, as the grip is so small. You can easily find larger grips, as the I and J-frame combat/target grips will fit it. Look on eBay.

The 38 S&W is a weak cartridge and does not need a large set of stocks to shoot. Besides, no one considers them as target revolvers. Fun is the name of the game and you can't help but smile when a 100 plus year old revolver operates as it was designed and a crowd gathers as soon as you take it out of the case. Keep it original and enjoy.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Army Rover, please check that your front pivot / screw is inserted correctly.

I don't know how or why, and even though it is indexed to only fit one way, it appears yours is backwards. I believe the screwdriver slot should be on the left side of the frame.
You will notice a factory index line on the blank head of the pivot bolt, (now inserted through left side of frame), and a matching alignment mark on the frame's right side.

I stand to be corrected, (hope I am); and as I said I didn't think they could fit but one way, so let us know ??

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wanna do right-- not right now

No idea on that one I will take a look, been tied up the last couple days doing home improvement projects for SWMBO.

Is there a online manual or parts diagram for these that anyone has seen?


This one will only be shot on occasion. It will definitely not be hitting the range every trip. On another gun forum I belong to it was suggested I should clean it and put it in a shadow box. That I can't do, firearms need to be used as intended.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

Army, a quick look on youtube for a dissassembly of your 4th model, with the info as noted by post #3, (wiregrassguy) will at least bring up some pictures of the pivot and screw as I wrote about.

I think if you look closely at the frame where the pivot inserts, right side, you will see an indexing mark for aligning.

The usual bible for S&W revolvers by J. Kuhnhausen I have does not cover these older models, only the "lettered models", post 57'.

I did recently use a book that covered these top-break revolvers, back into the 1800s, it was by J.B Wood.

By the way the "pivot" I keep referring to is correctly called the barrel hinge pin.

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wanna do right-- not right now

Good catch rog. Hope the indexing peg in the pin is not filed off.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It is hard to tell but the right grip looks like it is cracked or glued back together, be careful with it.

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

It does have a slight crack in the grip I noted that the other day.

I will look into it and pull it apart before I take her to the range,

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

So finally had a few minutes and I saw what you were all referring to. I found the alignment marks and that the screw was indeed on the wrong side.

I pulled out the gun smithing tools I got for christmas and pulled the screw and used a small punch to tap out the other half.

The locking tab was intact. So I cleaned it up and flipped it around.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

So you gentlemen were definitely correct. She was sent in April of 1913 for service.




So since the grips are off which appear to be at least one replacement as it has a date code stamped into the inside of the grip maybe. I am going to give it a good soak in the ultra sonic cleaner. Very tempted to pick up a nice set of wood grips for it.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

When using an ultrasonic cleaner on a blued gun make sure it is totally submerged. Do not leave it out of the solution part way or you will get a line in the bluing that you cannot get out. Don't ask me how I know!

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

Good tip I did not know that. I appreciate the heads up.

It is fully submerged and when it comes out it will get toweled off, blown with compressed air than oiled.

Course as we can both see there is not much bluing left on the old girl.

Here she is as cleaned up as she gets

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

Check this link for parts & disassembly. A couple of key pages are not visible for free, but you can buy it & go to town!

Antique Firearms Assembly/Disassembly: The Comprehensive Guide to Pistols ... - David Chicoine - Google Books

If you want to get some new grips for your revolver to prevent damage to your originals, you might want to look here:

S & W Double Action .38 Break Top Revolver - Vintage Gun Grips - Reproduction Pistol Grips, Buttplates and Grip Caps.

Buck

I have the exact same gun and it still shoots, too. It is fun shooting such a vintage gun! Use standard ammo - no heavy Buffalo Bore or Cor-Bon loads in .38 S&W.

I forgot the rule - no pictures means it didn't happen! So I came back top add some. Not sure why I have this many, though......

I also forgot to mention that I might have extra stocks for that gun. I have perfect ones on mine so the others might be less than perfect but if your stocks are cracked I might be able to assist - no charge. A Forum member assisted me, I can assist you.

If anyone has an extra frame screw (see hole) I'd be obliged.

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	4th Model 002.jpg (68.5 KB, 33 views)
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Not a bad idea , mine had a crack that didn't go all the way through so I replaced them with some checkered wood grips I found on ebay. I placed a thin line of epoxy on the back side of the partial crack and put them away. The checkered wood grips help in shooting a lot.

After shooting this one I now have a much greater appreciation for my model 64 S&W in 38 special , K frame , swing out cylinder, sights you can actually see, decent sized grip. What an improvement !
Gary

Thanks everyone for the links. Also thank you for the offer of a grip. I may take you up on that.

I've been watching for a nice looking set of wood grips for the old girl to spruce her up a bit.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

Getting in the spirit, here are a couple of "relevant" photos of two that recently dropped into my hands, thanks to Revolvergeek. I'm getting ready to shoot about 25 boxes of vintage ammunition through a variety of Smith & Wesson I/J frames, a Victory, and a Ruger Indian contract gun, all in caliber .38 S&W, aka .38 Colt New Police, aka .380 Rim Mk. 2Z, etc. Anyway, he found these two serviceable oldies and grabbed them up for me, so they'll be used to fire a few shots for old time's sake with factory ammo proven to be mild.



The "snubbie" was shortened sometime in the past, with hammer spur removed, too. Next week my gunsmith is installing a 1/8" brass shotgun bead for a front sight, which would make Fairbairn and Sykes proud! It is a Smith & Wesson Double-Action .38, 4th Model.

The long-tubed gun is a Harrington & Richardson. Collector's Firearms has one almost exactly like it, albeit in FAR better condition, simply listed as a "Harrington & Richardson Break Top .38 S&W." See Harrington Break Top .38 S&W caliber revolver for sale.



The only difference I can see is that mine has a little pin just forward of the locking latch. It has a spring under it, because it returns to position if you press it in and release. Anybody know its function??

Gotta admit, for no known reason, I also have a soft spot for these old top-breaks. I just think they're neat little devices. Part of it might be from when I read about Alvin York's wild young days, it was mentioned that he almost always had a cheap top-break revolver, also known back then as "a fly-apart", tucked in on him somewhere.

Interesting that J-Frame stocks will fit, never heard that before. Certainly opens up a world of possibilities!





That pin helps ID the particular model; do you have the full name of yours yet? On mine (Second model, second variation), it was frozen in place. After much soaking & cleaning, I managed to knock it in, but now it's stuck there! No real effect on operation, it just means that when the cylinder latch is up I can dismount the cylinder/ejector assembly without further ado.

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TEAM DNF

No, I haven't done any research on it at all yet. I have no idea yet about its name, nomenclature, or history.
Any hints on H&R research before I start googling??

Thanks for the tip about the pin. Sounds like it's for latch disassembly...

Aha, just scanned the box pic you provided, and there it is...!

I can tell you that yours looks exactly like mine, with the exception of barrel length. Can you post a pic of the patent info on top of the barrel? There is a good H&R forum out there somewhere, I don't have it bookmarked, where I found a bunch of good info; you'll probably find it before I could.

One thing I can tell you is that yours is not safe for smokeless powder. It's easy to tell on these H&Rs, if there's no caliber marking on the left side of the barrel, it's BP only.

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TEAM DNF

How does the action on those feel, compared to the M&P/Model 10 and other S&W's with swing-out cylinders? Is it "harder"?

I found a set of J frame stocks for mine and got them coming. Can't wait to have a nice set of wood grips on her.

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AR15-22 Shield .40 BG 380

It's apples and oranges in terms of technological development of the revolver, so even though I find the actions usable for their intended purpose (close range self-defense), they are not nearly as smooth as later solid frame guns.

One must remember that these guns are small because people were smaller 100 years ago. Back then at 5'8" you were considered tall.

You may want to rethink that when you look at the prices of old ammo. I was at a gun show Saturday and some of the older boxed ammo was going for $75 to $100 a box.

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James Redfield
LM #497

I've already put together the ammunition supply.

"One must remember that these guns are small because people were smaller 100 years ago. Back then at 5'8" you were considered tall."

Usually attributed to today's better health care and better nutrition. If you have ever seen authentic medieval suits of armor in a museum, it looks like they were made for 13 year old boys. Many of today's adults would have been considered giants back then.

Not to mention that the average life expectancy was about 40 or so? Also due to health care and nutrition issues.

I have an older S&W pistol with Ser. #9295 on butt which probably is in the 50-60s manufacture. I need information on it, tell me what it is exactly and how old, etc. I am new and have no clue as to details on it. Believe it has been in my family for most of its life. It says it is a .38 made in Springfield, MA has the ivory handle, and the trademark on the side within the handle and on the metal area. It isn't too deteriorated, but I need to know if it can be fired, and how to clean it. Thank you for any help!

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Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I have some news for you. Your gun is much older than you think. It likely shipped in 1909 or 1910. It is known as a .38 Double Action Perfected Model and was the last of the top break revolvers that S&W made. It was produced from 1909-1920. It is scarcely found in the US since S&W shipped most of them to South America. The grips that are on it are factory mother-of-pearl and are quite valuable in their own right. If the action is good, it can be fired. I suggest you take it to a gunsmith and have them check it before you fire it. Also, I recommend taking the MOP grips off because they are fragile and you don't want to damage them by shooting it. Replacement plastic and wooden grips are available from eBay or a grip retailer. The grips are removed by loosening the escutcheon screw and then pushing on the screw head to pop off the right panel. Then, the left panel can be removed by pushing it off through the grip frame. They have been on the gun for a long time and may be stuck to the frame so don't be rough with them. If they stick, you may have to soak them in a penetrating oil to loosen them from the frame.

To clean it, get some aerosol auto parts/brake/carb cleaner, some gun oil like Hoppes and a cleaning kit. Make sure the cleaning kit has brass brushes sized for .38", cotton patches and liquid gun cleaner. Take off the grips, cock the hammer and spray the parts cleaner into the hammer opening. Flush this way until the discharge runs clean. Spray into each cylinder chamber and down the barrel. Wet the brass brush with gun cleaner and run through the barrel and each chamber until they are clean. You can also swab the barrel and cylinder with cotton patches soaked in gun cleaner. Use a dry patch to remove the gun cleaning residue. When a dry patch is still clean after swabbing, the gun is clean. Put 5 drops of oil into the action through the hammer opening. Lightly oil the extractor shaft below the star and put a drop of oil on the pivot joint. That should do it.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

"I have some news for you. Your gun is much older than you think. It likely shipped in 1909 or 1910. It is known as a .38 Double Action Perfected Model and was the last of the top break revolvers that S&W made. It was produced from 1909-1920. It is scarcely found in the US since S&W shipped most of them to South America. The grips that are on it are factory mother-of-pearl and are quite valuable in their own right."

This is amazing, I had no clue as to this origin. I believe my grandfather must have traveled there and bought it, since he was the only one at that time who could have done that. Is there a way to check the ones that were sent to South America? How do you open the top-break part without hurting the assembly too much. I don't want to fire it now, just want to know about its history. Being that old, I do want to keep it in good shape, not to fire but to enjoy. I did mess up on the mother-of-pearl grips, it didn't look like ivory but I didn't know. I assume one would need antique ammo, which is not something I would need. Just so great to display it, how much would it be worth now? Wowie! Thank You!

I don't think there is a record of the guns shipped to South America, however, you can find out where and to whom your gun went by purchasing an historian's letter of authenticity. They cost $75 and there is a sticky link at the top of the forum that takes you to the form. Mr. Roy Jinks is the S&W historian. Make sure you send him some well lighted and sharp photos with the request form. I suspect your gun never left the US. The letter will also tell you if the MOP grips were installed and shipped with the gun from the factory.

The Perfected model is unique in the way the cylinder is opened. You must push forward on the thumbpiece on the left side while simultaneously pulling back and up on the barrel latch. All other top breaks just have the barrel latch. It was designed this way to prevent a crook from disarming the gun by grabbing and releasing the barrel latch. The barrel will tip down as the cylinder is opened and any casings in the cylinder will automatically be ejected by a rising ejector star. Then the ejector star will reinsert into the cylinder so the gun can be reloaded. The gun is designed to shoot .38 S&W cartridges (CTG). That ammo is still manufactured and may be shot in the gun. You may have to go to a big box sports store like Cabelas, Bass Pro Shops or Academy Sports to find it. The best choice is to pick cartridges loaded with lead round nosed bullets, not jacketed bullets.

Value is very subjective and differs in different regions of the country. According to our most recent reference source, the Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Edition, a Perfected model in Very Good condition is valued at $285. That does not include the MOP grips which I believe could bring over $200 all by themselves. Of course, you don't want to separate them from the gun as they are a part of its provenance. That is just my guess. Others may provide their perspective which will probably differ from mine.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Wiregrassguy: A minor correction to your post above. The perfected model .38 was not the last top break model made by S&W. It was the last top break introduced by S&W, but the last produced was the .38 Safety Hammerless, which was catalogued until 1940.

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Tom
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