Hello everyone,

Looking for more information on a recent addition revolver. It's markings indicated Smith and Wesson springfield Russian model 1 Commercial. 1874-1878. A bunch of different dates stamped on it.

Local gun shop offered $1500.00 but I think it might be worth much more.

Any info at all would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Bill

[IMG]20170202_175310 by Bill Kincaid, on Flickr[/IMG]

That's a Number 3 framed, Third Russian Model. Has some finish issues, but otherwise looks pretty good. How are the bore and charge holes?
Sorry, but I'm not expert enough to help much with value, but $1500 sounds a mite low to me,too.

Larry

Welcome to the Forum. Serial number would help us help you, but if you look at the end of the address line on the barrel rib, I am curious what it says?

This is a very nice example of a Model 3 Russian that would have been manufactured from 1874 to 1878. There is a newly published Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, 4th Edition that gives the following values. Very Good - $2250 (40%); Fine - $3000 (70%); Excellent - $6000 (90%)

Never set foot in that shop again! You have at least a $4000 revolver there and maybe more if condition can be determined nearer 90%. Great gun with ivory stocks may bring even more.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary thank you for the information I greatly appreciate it. I will get a magnifying glass and take a couple more pictures to post today. I look forward to your comments.

Larry thank you also for responding.

Thanks

Bill

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass, Bill! Is the finish on that gun nickel or metallic paint? The reason I ask is the appearance and also the trigger guard looks plated. The trigger guard and spur should be blue. I have its sister which was also nickeled originally but now only has about 10% finish left.



Actually, here is a better picture.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

$1,500 is about right for a gun shop's offer to buy for cash. It's probably a $3,000 + gun retail and probably won't immediately fly off the shelf at that price, as most local type gun stores don't get a lot of antique buyer traffic. Depends on how fast you wan't to turn it into cash - your options are (1) consign it to the gun shop with a $3K+ reserve and negotiate their sales commission (2) Consign it to a good online, or physical, auction, with the same reserve & commission negotiation, and (3) list it here on the Forum for sale at a $3K+ price and see what you are offered. It appears the gun may have had a refinish many years ago. Good Luck, Ed.

Here is an additional image, and info.

1) The whole gun appears Nickel plated to me.
2) The only other number on the gun is at the base of the stock. SH in a diamond pattern and below it the number 42803.
The cylinder walls and barrel appear to be in great shape. I would give the rifling 90+.
3) The gun locks up positive and the trigger locks up in cocked position as if from the factory. Trigger pull very crisp.

[IMG]S&W Rib by Bill Kincaid, on Flickr[/IMG]

Early 3rd Model Russian. Commercial production ran 39,000 to 52,500 making 42803 early. Probably 1874 or early 1875. Diamond SH is Schuler, Hartley & Graham (SH&G) of New York City mark.
It should have assy numbers on the right side of the frame under the grip plate, on the face of the clinder, on the bottom of the barrel latch, and rear face of the barrel extension.
Joe

There is a number of the face of the Cylinder. 4112 appears stamped one number at a time because there not lined up. The 2 is slightly higher. Kind of funny.

I'm not taking the grips off. These Ivory grips have yellowed so beautifully I would be scared to death I would crack them.

I can't find the number at bottom of the barrel latch. There doesn't seem to be any other numbers on this thing but I said that before and have found two sets. It sure helps when you know where to look.

Thank you everyone for your help. I'm going to enjoy this forum, your my kind of people. Very nice and very helpful!!

Bill

barrel_latch211.jpg
Like this
Joe

This is a nice firearm, but the finish makes me suspicious of renickeling and certain parts, such as the barrel latch, were not originally nickeled.

Oh yea, I didn't see it because there was a small spec of dirty oil right on the serial number. It also is stamped 4112.

I don't know enough to know if refinishing was done. However if it was done it had to be done along time ago. You just can't get this kind of wear in a couple of years, that much I do know. Plus I have seen these completely nickel plated.


Thanks Joe!!

I don't see any nickel on the trigger, hammer, and the latch knurled rounds are dark?? Thegun is sharp and all edges are as sharp as they come. Stampings are very sharp and appear not to have been molested, and you just do not see many refinishes that look this good?? Also, looking at the two pictures, I think the flat nickel appearance is because of the lighting and the top section of the barrel has the gloss of an old original nickel finish. Still hoping for original finish, but as we all say, only a detailed inspection would tell the tale.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

there is definitely no nickel on the hammer. Also I didn't notice it until I changed the lighting on it, but there is a stamp just above the grip,(you can see it in the first picture right above the top of the grip) It's stamped 1874. That 1874 is very clear and sharp. I cannot believe that a refinish wouldn't have rounded all the corners on the numbers. I will be shocked if this gun is refinished. But that's why I'm here...............

Here is a couple more pictures, hope this helps.

AGAIN THANK YOU EVERYONE. UNBLIEVEABLE!!

[IMG]right side angle by Bill Kincaid, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]right side by Bill Kincaid, on Flickr[/IMG]

In post #7, the barrel latch is clearly nickeled. The nickel of the barrel latch is like that of the remainder of the firearm in quality. That is, it was applied at the same time as on the rest of the gun. The barrel latch should be blue. Therefore, this strongly suggests an old renickel, although well done at that.

Thank your MRCVS in trying to help me identify and authenticate this Revolver. I have in fact decided to sell it. I would not want to mis-represent the gun and sell it for much more than it's worth. I would disclose fully what I know about it and how I came in possession of it. However, on the other hand I don't want to give it away for much much less than it's worth.

So I have a couple of questions. While I have always enjoyed hand guns I've never collect older guns, so I know little about them.

1) Who, or how do I determine if the gun was in fact refinished at some point?
2) What, if anything, does this do to the value of the Firearm if it was refinished?

This forum has the foremost experts when it comes to Smith & Wesson revolvers so, in time, with enough pictures, there should be a general consensus as to is it refinished or not. I am an amateur relative to some of the others, believe me, but I don't hesitate to speak what I see, for better or worse.

The best way to sell this would be, after the consensus determines if original or not, to post on the forum here. If original, could start at 3k and gradually lower the price until you receive an offer you like. If renickeled, probably start in the $1800 range and go from there.

If you don't like any of the offers received on this forum, you could attempt to sell at a national firearms auction house such as James Julia or Rock Island Auction.

Well thanks again for all the info, while your comments are not in my favor, I'm glad you didn't hesitate to speak about what you thought were inconsistencies. This is exactly what I was looking for. I want to know for sure what I have.

If any particular pictures are needed I would be happy to take them. I apologize I'm using a Samsung phone but it is all I have.

This fire was obtained in a small auction. The gun was in a box marked $7000. I don't if that's what was paid at one time or if that was just what was being asked. Seems high either way to me. However again that's why I'm here.

I REALLY APPRECIATE EVERYONES COMMENTS AND HELP. Any info I can post to help please feel free to ask for the info.

Looks Refinished to me. I would pay $1500 but probably no more.

It's very nice, but I don't think that Nickel is original.

I saw one like this sell at Auction for $1200 recently.

It could have been refinished at S&H. My understanding is they did do some of that and engraving after receiving the guns from S&W. The 1874 stamp on the butt is typical of the 3rd models. Also should be stamped "Russian Model" on the top rib rear.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I''m a little disappointed but happy to be finding out more about the Revolver. I guess if nothing decisive developed I should just take the 1500.00 from the local gun shop who offered it. I have very little invested in it.

I appreciate everyones help and opinions. I know little about refinishing even though I've watch a friend who is a gun smith (a good one I might add) refinish many a firearm. Through all that polishing I just don't see how the numbers and text on this revolver could be factory crisp. But it is what it is.

Bill

Since the general consensus, as described above, is that it is refinished, it cannot bring the amount an original firearm might bring. My guess is that the LGS offered $1500 because it believes the finish is original to this firearm. Indeed, it takes a student of antique Smith & Wesson firearms, many of whom hang out on this forum regularly, to identify a good refinish as such.

You might be well advised to accept the $1500 offer locally. Or post somewhat higher in the classifieds section of this forum and see if you can't get an offer slightly in excess of $1500, identifying, of course, that your firearm is refinished. You can ship through the mail and ship to the buyer without an FFL as this is a pre 1899 firearm.

If you aren't in a hurry, you might consider getting an historian's letter of authenticity. That would confirm the finish in which the gun shipped. They cost $75 and would likely return that cost at sale, especially if the revolver shipped with a nickel finish. Lately, the turn around has been less than a month.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Thank you again for the reply. How do I go about this history letter?

Bill

I don't think I would invest in a historical letter on a firearm I did not intend to keep if the firearm is refinished. A historical letter would state the original finish, but is it worth spending the money to know if the gun was originally blued and refinished as nickel, or if originally nickel, and later renickeled?

Here's a link to the historical letter page.

Here are my thoughts on this. A historical letter tells you background on the model, its shipping configuration and when and to whom the gun was sent. We know it went to S&H since it bears their stamp. However, there is question on the finish. If the letter confirms it was refinished, you still have authenticated the gun and it is likely worth the price of the letter to a future buyer. If the letter confirms it is in original finish, you have perhaps increased the value of the gun by at least $1000. Some folks have been throwing out values of $3000 or more if original. I don't know about that, but I strongly feel it will be worth more than the cost of the letter with a confirming letter.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

A historical letter cannot confirm if a gun is in its original finish. It can only confirm what the original finish was, and if the current finish and that described in the letter are one in the same, it takes anything from an unskilled eye to a very skilled eye, depending on the quality of the (re)finish, to determine if the finish is original or not.

A factory letter CAN verify a refinish by describing a finish different from that currently on the gun.

Well I decided to take a little road trip this morning and have the revolver looked at in person. This gun smith has been repairing and refinishing firearms for almost 40 years. Probably the best in my part of the state.. I also got lucky because when I got there another old timer ( gun smith ) was also there picking up a part.

I asked them to inspect the gun and give me an honest opinion. They asked me what I wanted to know about it. I said if the finish was original, and what condition they felt it was in.

After around 20 minutes of inspecting it with different magnifying glasses the smith I went to see handed it to the visiting smith. I said lets wait and not contaminate his opinion. Funny the other guy said you won't contaminate my opinion because I pretty much made up my mind after seeing it for two minutes, but I'll finish my inspection.

They both agreed that the finish was absolutely original, and the second man said you not only can tell by inspecting it, I've owned two myself exactly like this and I know they were not refinished. they placed it at 70-80%

So the plot thickens for me. LOL

This is one of the best refinished I have ever seen, but it has to be a refinish. What else explains, among other things, the nickeled barrel latch? For comparison, please refer to some of these firearms for sale at the top auction houses and retail firearms outlets in the country. None that are unrefinished are nickeled to this degree.

Having said that, if there is an exception out there, and I have never seen one and cannot see why one would exist, this firearm comes closest to that.

I am not willing to purchase this one as 100% original only to find out later I was wrong.

Having said that, I would love to own this particular firearm if presented with irrefutable evidence that it is not refinished.

I understand because I have the same problem. I absolutely refuse to sell something of historical significance, no matter how small, that is not represented 100% correctly.

However it just doesn't look like I will ever have irrefutable evidence. I took it to the most knowledgeable people I know and they said it was absolutely original. I just don't know what to do at this point and again, I will not sell it without being convinced myself of what I'm selling.

P.S. it must just be the barrel latch thing because the smith said the hammer, and trigger were not nickel plated.

I'm starting to lose patients now. I had no idea this was going to be so difficult!

The historical letter could disprove the current finish. That is, if it letters as a blued finish, it is therefore refinished. If nickel, it just thickens the mystery.

I have spoken with the OP on the phone and he is a true gentleman!

MRCVS, thank you so much for all the time you've spent trying to help me. Maybe someday I'll know for sure, or maybe I'll get lucky and more samples like mine will show up proving it original. I will hold on to it until I'm fairly convinced one way or the other.

I guess even if it was refinished a long time ago, it's a beautiful gun, the gun smiths were amazed the Ivory handles had no checkering or cracks in them. They said they have patina'd beautifully. Did i say that correctly?

Again thank you everyone!!

Bill

There is Nickel on the Latch, there is Nickel on the Trigger Guard, there may even be Nickel on the Hammer! Unless someone took these parts off and had them Nickeled to match the Original, it can be just about guaranteed this Gun has been refinished. The line around the Side Plate does not look to me like it should if the Gun were original. Yes, the lettering is clear and sharp; all this says to me is that whomever refinished the Gun knew what they were doing and took care not to ruin the lettering. A Nickel job can be a good Nickel Job; they aren't always bad!! A S&W Letter will (probably) say what kind of finish the Gun left the Factory with, but that's all. What happened over the next 140 odd years is anyones guess.
Of course if the Letter says 'Special Order with Nickeled Latch, Trigger Guard and Hammer and a pronounced line around the Side Plate' I will not only eat my best hat but video it and post it on youtube for everyone's enjoyment!!
If you paid very little for it; then keep it !! What a great Shooter Grade Russian; the Dealer will put a crazy price on it and further inflate the already inflated prices that the uninitiated so often pay for Guns that are not Collector Quality but are priced as such by unscrupulous Dealers.

Looks similar to mine...

S&W Model 3 3rd Russian.jpg

S/N of the above in the 48,000 range. "1874" in a box above the serial number on the bottom of the grip.

Ivory grips are pretty sweet!

Excellent points sw44russ! As you stated, unless lettered as nickeled hammer, trigger guard, and barrel latch (thereby becoming a custom gun) there is no reason why this particular gun would be nickeled in these places, unless it was renickeled later. In an earlier post, I stated I believed that this was an old renickel, but I wanted to "hope" for this one being the exception. If you collect antique firearms, you want to avoid "excuse" guns. That is, the gun is 100% right except for... To collect the very best, you want 100% correct, without the "excuse" part. The only plausible explanation for a mass produced firearm differing from many others might be due to a design change. Usually such firearms fall into a certain range. For example, think of early Colt SAA revolver production. The earliest produced contained a pinched frame prior to a design change. Perhaps, if this revolver was amongst the very earliest produced, it could be argued that "maybe" the earliest produced were 100% nickeled. If a few others surfaced, it would provide credence to such a claim. Otherwise, it just cannot be!

Also, excellent point with regards to the sideplate. That also supports a refinish. Although the sideplates of most refinished firearms are far worse, the interface isn't as crisp as it should be if not a refinished firearm.

I finally found a pretty astute collector in the area who said he would take a look at it and give me his opinion wether he was interested in it or not.

I will let you know what he says. My appointment is later today.

Again thanks everyone for being so helpful!

Bill

Well, what did you find out? Thanks!

I believe what the three people who inspected the gun believed. That the finish was original. However, I will not dispute the couple people who believe it was refinished, I am in no position to do so. So based on that I let the gun go for $1800.00, but will always believe I cut myself short.

Thank you everyone for being so kind with your time and efforts in helping me. Based on this experience, I hope that I can be a contributing member of this forum.

Brian, unless Im missing something my gun looks identical to the one you have. The wear pattern is even almost the same. Is yours refinished?

Thanks

S&W Guns had Blued Latches and Trigger Guards and Case Coloured Hammers on their Nickeled Guns. On a Gun with original Finish; the Side Plate is an almost seamless fit to the Frame and you have to look hard to even see it

$1800 was a very good price to get for a Refinished, albeit a well Refinished Gun. If it was a Dealer who bought it, they have paid Full Retail + for it. Now they will mark it up and charge the next owner an inflated price and so the cycle goes on; Dealers paying full Retail and novice buyers paying way to much - if the Gun sells. Look on GB and you will a find a hundred old Guns that the Dealer paid too much for and cant sell it for what they want because their price is based on whatever they paid plus a usually hefty margin.

The 38 SH or DA is a perfect example; Shooter Grade (Refinished or Down in the mouth) worth about $250. The Dealer buys the Gun at full Retail Price and they turn up on GB for $395 and sit there for months!!
If the Gun has aftermarket Stocks or a shiny Refinish; it will likely even sell.
The other puzzling one is the SH or DA with the Bobbed Barrel; often selling for double the value because somebody has butchered the Gun!!
I guess at the end of the day; the value is what someone is willing to pay for something they want and that often defies logic.

Bill - I knew your revolver was a "keeper" and that's why I suggested that you come over to this forum to find out more about it. You can be mighty proud of it - it's a great piece of history and don't let anybody talk you out of it for a sack of peanuts. I dare say that no one on this forum would kick it out of bed for eating crackers!

Glad you're getting lots of good information on it - those ivory grips are to die for! Enjoy!

Jim

Yes and thank you for doing so. The members here have done there best help me as their experienced allowed. I couldn't of asked for more. I plan on being around here from time to time to learn more. While all of My guns are modern, going thru this experience with a 140 plus year old pistol did something to me. That gun was beautiful and so well made, even with the degrading finish. I now want a couple along with some old Colts would do. LOL

BILL

Far from being an expert, I'd guess probably.

Barrel catch doesn't match (s/n) and the triggerguard is nickled.

Still...nice pistol. Nearly a twin to yours!

I think your ivory stocks bump the value up a notch for me.