Antique Ammo find, show us your antique ammo

model3sw · #1 02-16-2017, 11:52 AM

Just to clear the subject and placement ... I'm posting and asking about vintage ammo used for antique revolvers, thus the placement in ANTIQUES, whether it was manufactured e pre 1898 or in the 1900s as long as it is the proper ammo "for" an antique S&W, I believe this is the correct placement.

I found this box of Rem-UMC Gallery ammo in .44 Russian. Something I had never seen before. I have the .32-44 and the .38-44 gallery but I had never seen the .44R gallery, furthermore ... this CLEAN. Usually the old gallery ammo, even if box is in great shape usually the lead ball projectiles are loaded with lead oxide / white powdery residue.

Please post YOUR vintage ammo for your best Antique S&W's

ddeanjohnson · #2 02-17-2017, 06:58 PM

As near as I can tell, what I have here is a complete box of unfired BLANKS, produced by Frankford Arsenal for use in .45 S&W (.45 Schofield) or .45 Colt Government revolvers. They are primed internally.

The valuable reference book U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns: 1895-1975, by Charles R. Suydam (Benfield, 1977) has a photo of this style of box on page 229, with a notation that it was used from 1882 to about 1900. The same book (p. 228) contains a photo of one of the blanks with this description: "Tinned primer, brass case. Blank, taper crimped to .374'' over lacquered card wad."

According to various sources, these blanks were used to accustom cavalry horses to the sound of gunfire.

As you see, the top of this box has been torn off. Also, 10 of the 12 cartridges are partly covered with a glossy substance, which I believe to be the remnants of transparent tape that somebody once used to hold the cartridges in the opened box (although they are held quite snugly in their little cardboard compartments). I suppose this tape could be cleaned off with the proper solvent, but I have not messed with them.

ddeanjohnson · #3 02-17-2017, 07:18 PM

These six cartridges were acquired by my friend Terry J. Popkin, renown gun photographer (SWCA No. 1963), at an auction at a SWCA conference. The tag that came with them, as shown, says: "45 S&W Schofield cartridges, Benett primed. (Loaded by Frankford Arsenal in 1880.)"

U.S. Cartridges and Their Handguns: 1795-1975, by Charles R. Suydam, says (p. 228), "From December 1871 until 1882, the U.S. Government ammunition made at Frankford Arsenal used a shallow copper cup primer crimped inside a copper case . . . it wasn't until 1882 that an outside primed, reloading (copper) case was adopted." Other sources confirm that the internal primer used on these cartridges is known as the "Benet" [single t] primer.

SchofieldKid · #4 02-17-2017, 08:01 PM

I don't have anything quite that cool, just these.Sorry for the shine on the .38 boxes, they're wrapped in Saran wrap. The inside primed is a 45 Schofield, unknown maker, possibly Frankford Arsenal. The center is .44 American and the right is .44 Russian with 3 very light hits on the primer-it didn't apparently fire.

THREEDFLYER · #5 02-17-2017, 08:10 PM

Here ya go!

Full/Sealed box of FA .45 Schofield (or Colt SAA) ammo dated 1878 and a few loose rounds.
Keep in mind, FA started making the shorter round in .45 that could be shot in either the Colt or the Schofield.
The longer original .45 Colt cartridge would obviously not fit in the shorter chamber or the Schofield.

BRush · #6 02-18-2017, 03:03 AM

Here are some more.

Frankford Arsenal Boxes for the 44 colt conversion and Remington 44 conversion (which was apparently never adopted), The Martin 44 American Cartridge for the 1st American, 1873 and 1874 Boxes for the Colt SAA, and each Box issued for the Schofields and 45 Colt loadings from 1875 through the Philippine Insurrection, except the 1881 Box, the 1901-02 20 Cartridge Box for Colt Artillery revolvers and the rare Smokeless Powder box of narrow rim loadings adopted for the Colt SAA and the Colt Model 1909 DA revolver initially shipped to the Philippines.

Club Gun Fan · #7 03-16-2017, 11:49 PM

Here are some of mine.

italiansport · #8 03-17-2017, 12:15 AM

Well: Here's one drawer of it.
Jim

ol777gunnerz · #9 03-17-2017, 10:15 AM

Winchester EZXS Match ammunition from late 1940's- 1950's; the Peters Stevens Pope Armory [empty] is from early 1900's. A USRA booklet from 1908 documents R H Sayre used the same ammo in the Match B pistol outdoor championship that year. The pistol [which I own] was re-sleeved shortly after that match to .22 short by H M Pope for indoor matches. Dr. Sayre then shot a Remington single shot .44 in the outdoor matches from then on, also in the booklet. The conversion date of my pistol also matches serial number dates in known Pope records. Also shown in pistol photos is a Winchester .22 sealed box from 1923-30.

cmansguns · #10 03-17-2017, 10:43 AM

Check out Threedflyer post #5 above, photo far right.

That revolver appears to have "football" relief stocks...ammo dated 1878, game of football invented 14 years later (1892).

S & W must have been "looking to the future" even then

Schof45 · #11 03-17-2017, 07:20 PM

My one and only Schofield ammo box is very worn and starting to fall apart. Any recommendation to prevent further deterioration and storage that I can either do myself or have it done professionally.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...render-2-a.jpg

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...render-3-a.jpg

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...render-1-a.jpg

http://smith-wessonforum.com/members...sizerender.jpg

mmaher94087 · #12 03-17-2017, 07:57 PM

I recommend doing nothing to the box or cartridges other than wrapping it in plastic. Saran wrap is often used and is a household item but the serious cartridge collectors prefer polycarbonate plastic. Either one will keep dust, moisture and finger oils away from the already old and fragile pasteboard and graphics.

smith17 · #13 03-18-2017, 12:32 PM

Probably an effort to skirt the pistol ammo tax. I have no idea of the date of this box.
Ed

model3sw · #14 03-18-2017, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smith17

Probably an effort to skirt the pistol ammo tax. I have no idea of the date of this box.
Ed

I'm sure one of the major ammo collectors will be by to comment further but does the side panel indicate smokeless ? If not likely prior to 1898 but I don't know how much prior to 1898. If it does indicate Smokeless it should be newer than 1898.

It is likely not "rifle" ammo. I have about a dozen boxes of a different brand ammo, more than 12 each of .32 and .38 S&W ammo marked RIFLE cartridges but they are actually not for intended for a RIFLE. Whether there are rifles that fire .32 S&W or not, I am not sure. Winchester .32 Rifle Cartridges are different than .32 S&W (as is .38 S&W and .38 Winchester ammo).

As I had learned from other members, back in the day there was an extra charge, tax or tariff of some sort on revolver ammo so, very smartly, manufacturers labeled the box RIFLE CARTRIDGES to avoid this seemingly unreasonable extra expense.

Club Gun Fan · #15 03-19-2017, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smith17

Probably an effort to skirt the pistol ammo tax. I have no idea of the date of this box.
Ed

I have several boxes like yours. The story I got from several sources, plus have seen it in print is this. New York state put a tax on pistol ammo. To get around the tax they started calling it rifle ammo.

DWalt · #16 03-19-2017, 06:31 PM

Ray T. Giles' book, "100 Years of Winchester Cartridge Boxes, 1856-1956" mentions the tax situation for rifle vs. handgun ammunition, and he says something general about several states having special taxes on handgun ammunition.
"In certain states, due to a tax on"pistol" cartridges, this caliber became a "Rifle Cartridge," according to the labeling seen here...destined for sale in Tennessee, South Carolina, or some other "pistol tax" state."

Regarding the .45 Schofield blank cartridges mentioned previously, their purpose was indeed for cavalry horse training. I have a second home on a former horse cavalry army base in Texas, and fired blank cases can still be found there if one has a metal detector. Back in the day, that fort had over 2,000 horses in residence, all of which had to be trained to tolerate gunfire.

During the post-Civil War era, there were many types of internal priming designs tried, not just Benet. Seems like a lot of inventors were very interested in inside priming. None lasted very long after the the Boxer primer caught on, as it was reloadable.

KELSW · #17 03-19-2017, 07:00 PM

I am collector but not firearms related really enjoyed seeing the photos . thanks for posting !

DWalt · #18 03-20-2017, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRush

Here are some more.

Frankford Arsenal Boxes for the 44 colt conversion and Remington 44 conversion (which was apparently never adopted), The Martin 44 American Cartridge for the 1st American, 1873 and 1874 Boxes for the Colt SAA, and each Box issued for the Schofields and 45 Colt loadings from 1875 through the Philippine Insurrection, except the 1881 Box, the 1901-02 20 Cartridge Box for Colt Artillery revolvers and the rare Smokeless Powder box of narrow rim loadings adopted for the Colt SAA and the Colt Model 1909 DA revolver initially shipped to the Philippines.

A few comments. Note the top two boxes in the second row, They are wider, as pre-1875, the Army used full-length .45 Colt cartridges for the SAA. The other boxes are less wide, as in August 1874 the Army went to the shorter .45 S&W/Schofield case length because they would work in both Colt and S&W Schofield revolvers then in service. In 1882, Frankford Arsenal began use of the Boxer primer instead of inside priming. Copper cartridge cases were used until 1890 when brass cases began (which were initially tinned). The standard practice was that a cavalry trooper would carry a loaded revolver in his holster and two of the 12-round boxes on his person or in his saddlebags. Of course, more was available from the supply wagon if needed. It usually wasn't. During the events leading up to the adoption of the M1911 .45 Pistol, the Army's Cavalry Board fought it on the grounds that troopers hardly ever needed more than six rounds, and they were just fine with keeping their revolvers.

The first regulation version of the military .45 revolver cartridge to use smokeless powder was specified in 1908, for the M1909 cartridge which was intended for use only in the Colt M1909 New Service revolver. Most M1909 revolvers were sent to the Philippines, very few (only a few hundred) were used stateside. They are scarce revolvers, and I am fortunate enough to have two of them, both in very good condition. The M1909 revolver cartridge used what was essentially the longer .45 Colt cartridge case but with a wider (by about 0.02") rim flange diameter to improve extraction reliability. That particular cartridge was not suitable for use in the Colt SAA, as only every other chamber could be loaded in the Colt cylinder due to rim interference. So a six-shooter Colt SAA became a three-shooter with the M1909 cartridge. .45 S&W/Schofield (and .45 Colt) cartridges could be used in the M1909 Colt revolver, but at the risk of extractor jamming. No issue M1909 cartridge boxes are shown in the group picture above. They were longer, 20 rounds in two rows of 10, instead of 12 rounds in two rows of six. The only manufacturer of the M1909 cartridge was Frankford Arsenal. The original loading used Bullseye powder (made by Du Pont then), which did not work out too well, requiring a later change to a bulkier smokeless powder called RSQ.
----------------------------------
"I'm sure one of the major ammo collectors will be by to comment further but does the side panel indicate smokeless ? If not likely prior to 1898 but I don't know how much prior to 1898. If it does indicate Smokeless it should be newer than 1898. "

UMC began offering a fairly complete line of handgun ammunition loaded with smokeless powder in 1894, so it is possible to find pre-1898 smokeless powder cartridges. Du Pont began commercial-scale production of smokeless powder in its own plant at Carney's Point NJ in 1894, although some European manufacturers were already making it by that time. Du Pont could not get the European manufacturing patents to make it in the US, so it had to start from scratch.

BRush · #19 03-30-2017, 01:34 PM

Dewalt. Nice summery of the history of the Military 45 Colt loadings. However, your statement regarding the development of the M1909 loading is incomplete.

Further researchl discloses that at least the initial 90,000 rounds of the smokeless 45 Colt cartridge shipped to the Philippines were authorized for use in the Colt SAA revolvers . In fact, during this time the Army was simultaneously developing both the replacement SP round for the black powder Schofield round used in the Colt SAAs and the the cartridge for the new Model 1909 DA. The Army ordered the production of both. See the replicated Army coresspondence and the discussion in Moore's "Colt Single Action Army Revolver Study - New Discoveries.

The Army developed the 45 Colt SP round to replace the stores of the 1901 BP loadings which were quickly being depleted. The approved SP SAA round had 4.5 grains of Bullseye behind a 250 grain lead bullet.
The Army successively tested the round in unmodified Artillery SAA's, that is so called BP guns.

Apparently the authorized single SPs 45 Colt cartridge for use in both the SAA and M1909DA was dropped shortly after its adoption because of the pending replacement of the Colt SAA.. The complete road to this result is incomplete based on the surviving Army correspondence.

However, it is clear that the Frankfort Arsenal's drawing of the approved cartridge was sent to the Ordnance Office on 3-24-1909 showing a min. rim of .523 and a max. rim of .527 served as the cartridge for both the Colt SAA revolvers then in use and the new Model 1909DA revolver. This was the first version of the Model 1909DA Cartridge.

According to a 5-7-1909 correspondence from Col. Heath, commander of the FA, to the Inspector of the Ordnance, 90,000 of these first version M1909 cartridges were delivered to the Philippines between 3-17-1909 and 5-6-1909.

However when the Ordinance Office reordered 250,000 rounds for the new Model 1909 DA to be delivered to Manila it specified that these rounds should have the larger rim so as to not fit the SAA revolvers. This order was actually a resubmission of its previous 1908 order which had not yet been shipped. With other endorsements on this reorder, a total of 300,000 of the second version rounds were shipped to the Philippines between 5-25-1909 and 6-30-1909.

DWalt · #20 04-01-2017, 10:34 PM

Indeed, there was a preliminary version of the Model 1909 cartridge officially called the "Cal. .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge Model of 1909 for Single and Double Action Revolvers." Its rim was specified to have a diameter of .523"-.527". It was loaded only from early 1909 until sometime in April 1909, with about 90,000 rounds manufactured. It used a 250 grain lead bullet and 4.5 grains of Du Pont Bullseye powder. In March 1909 the specification was changed and what is officially known as the "Cal. .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge Model of 1909 for Colt's Double Action Revolver Model 1909", more generally known as the Model 1909 cartridge, went into production at Frankford Arsenal. Most of it used the Du Pont RSQ powder as earlier discussed. It had the larger .536"-.540" diameter. rim. It continued in production until April 1915. This final production order was for 2 million rounds which was delivered in June 1916.

It is interesting to note that on April 7, 1909, the Army Ordnance Office ordered that the "first" M1909 cartridge with the small rim was to be used only for testing new revolvers and was not to be issued for troop use. Therefore, the only M1909 ammunition put into actual combat service was the larger rim design.