Doing a little detective work for a friend of mine. I am familiar with the hand ejectors but these tip ups aren't in my wheelhouse.

First question: what model am I looking at? It appears to be chambered for a .32 or .38 variant of some kind. The last patent date on the cylinder is 1860.

Does it have any value?

Thanks.

What is the barrel length? It appears to be a 6" barreled Model 2 Army. The caliber would be .32 rim fire and value depends mostly on condition and function.

Condition appears to be pretty good so it probably depends on function. The barrel hinge was probably the weakest link with the tip up guns and if that is good with little to no side play, then that would be a big plus. Next would be whether the hammer and trigger function as designed. If the cylinder rotates when cocked and stays in position and the hammer falls when the trigger is pulled then function would appear to be good as well.

Gun prices vary around the country but typically I see these asking anywhere from $700 to about $1,500 in good condition and function.

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James Redfield
LM #497

What amazes me is the condition of those rosewood grips that are
156 years old. Your friend has a nice one.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

The gun functions well and the hinge pin seems to be tight as well


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These are important guns for S&W. First revolver capable of really hurting an assailant or enemy Civil War soldier. Tens of thousands were carried during the Civil War. Problem is that there is virtually no 32 long rimfire ammunition around to shoot in these old tip-ups. It is sad, since the condition of that Model 2 certainly looks like it would shoot well. I am pretty sure that the gun has been gone over with cold bluing. It has that mottled appearance and original bluing would have been quite glossy in appearance.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

It's serial number 10.


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There appears to be 3 pins in the top-strap, so it cannot have a serial number 10. The serial number is only found on the butt-frame on the bottom and on the inside of the right stock. The company used what they called assembly numbers for this model and stamped them on the inside of the butt-frame under the left stock, on the cylinder and on the barrel assembly just ahead of the cylinder. Those were either letters or numbers. The 3 pin Model 2 started with serial number somewhere around 3,000.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The 10 is found on the cylinder face and on the bottom of the butt so it must be an assembly number.

I appreciate all the information and I am enjoying learning about a new realm of the S&W world.


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Please post a picture of the serial number on the butt of the grip as this seems to be odd.

Here is a picture on the butt. It is also found on the cylinder.


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Well now we have a bit of a mystery here early ones should only have 2 pins yours clearly has 3.

My only guess is that the original number was removed on the butt and when some later owner found the "10" on the cylinder, they added the same number on the butt thinking it was the serial number?? Is there a number stamped inside the right stock?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This gun has a dubious history and been the subject of scrutiny for some years. It's NOT serial number 10. It's a 3 pin gun - which type depends on how much info the "owner" will release to us. Questions on it have popped up off and on for sometime and it's "owner' is always reluctant to provide details or allow examination by experts. I believe Gary's comment above may be right on the money, but whether the "10" was added to fool collectors, or for some other reason, I don't know. The gun is tainted as far as knowledgable Model 2 collectors are concerned, until full examination has been made public. If the poster is really looking for info for his "friend" he should come forward will full close up photos of ALL parts of the gun, and we will be able to decipher the mystery. Ed.

Well Ed, I am in fact doing some research for a "friend" of mine who owns the piece and asked me about it. So I thought I would come and ask the experts. These are my intentions and I don't appreciate you implying something else.

I saw it this afternoon when I went over to take a look at something else. Here are the rest of the pictures that I took. Please let me know what else you would like to see and I can get more pictures from my "friend" the current "owner"





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Let's see some pics of the other places you can find the '10'....

Just for comparison, here is a picture of my 2 pin model #2 old army (with known original history) serial #2015, and a picture of my 3 pin refinished #2 old army serial #7361. The "1" stamp looks close to the 10 serial numbered revolvers, and the serial number placement on the butt is similar as well,but the "1" stamp is just different enough to raise some speculation? I'm sure all the stamps must have been a little different as they were all made by hand,and probably touched up as needed when dull. Interesting...could someone have added the 3rd pin at some time?What would be the reason someone would do that? I'm asking,not insinuating anything..

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My Daddy was a pistol..

Interesting that the pictures we need are not shown. I agree with Ed 100%. I don't like the serial number, seems someone who knew nothing about Number 2's tried to make an instant collectible. Maybe your "friend" can come on an post more information.

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Don Mundell

younggun22 - you may not be aware, but many fake, fraudulent, and outright photographically altered guns show up on this Forum, so please don't take comments personally. The gun is, as Ed states, totally wrong and cannot be legtimized with the features shown. Serial number 10 would have been manufactured in 1861, over a year before the 3 pin design was introduced. The third pin limits the upward movement of the top frame cylinder stop. If you pull up on the rear of the stop where the rear sight slot is, it will only travel up a short distance. Before that, clothing, holsters, other objects could literally break the cylinder stop if pulled up with force. At the very least, it could bend the metal or break the return spring, stopping the gun from functioning.

What would be very helpful are pictures of the inside of the right stock, the rear of the barrel frame around the cylinder pivot hole, the front of the cylinder and the butt-frame under the left stock. This might help to identify how the number on the butt came to be.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I really appreciate the history as I am not at all familiar with these and can understand the doubt.

As I said earlier I am happy to provide any pictures needed to figure out what this is.

Is it at all possible the 3rd pin was added as an "upgrade",especially if the latch was a known issue to snag? I know of many a '63 Vette split windows that were converted to single back glass, in the day. Although functionally better, it damaged the value as an original car. But the owners didn't care at the time.

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My Daddy was a pistol..

I haven't seen anyone specify what pics are required. We've seen a couple different angles. I'd be interested in seeing this one run to ground and now seems to be an opportunity.

ETA: Waitaminnit - Glowe outlines it in post 18. I bet OP will be back shortly with the requested pics.

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Just Say No - To Social Media

I agree with glowe as I believe the number '10' has been added to the revolver butt. The serial numbers on the early #2's are small (~1/16" high) and end approximately 1/8" from the toe. This specimen doesn't display either of these features. The number on the inside of the right stock should verify the correct serial number.

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Mike Maher #283

younggun22, Sorry if I ruffled your feathers - not my intent. You may have stepped into a controversy unknowingly. This "No. 10" Model 2 army has changed hands in the past, I believe, with uninformed buyers getting what they thought was a legitimate serial # 10. The gun has been known to serious students for many years, as suspect. If you check Ron Curtis's web page for Model 2 Armies, there is a dissertation on the multiple types of Model 2 engineering changes, with photos showing how to identify these changes and how they are determined. I don't have a quick way of posting the link where I am now, perhaps another Forum member can provide it. Photos of your friend's gun following the Curtis info. will give us what we need to fully estimate the guns's production point in the life of the Model 2s. The correct serial number appears in only two places on a Model 2. On the back of the right grip and on the center of the butt on 3 pin guns. Very early production ( Ser. #s 1, 2,5,6, & 7 have the serial number at the heel of the butt, stamped 90 degrees off the centerline of the bore. A good start would be to post clear photos of the assembly code stamps on # 10 and where they are found. None of your above photos show them. Ed.

I find this all very interesting and will get as much of the requested in formation as soon as possible.

I am determined to get to the bottom of it now!


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I ran across the following information in Ron Curtis's database of Model 2 revolvers.

#10 - - 6" - - Refinished - - Re numbered Ch 5 Modified SWCA Journal vol 33#2 summer 1999.

Ron's website can be accessed here: Smith and Wesson Model 2 Army Revolver

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I went ahead and took the photo of the butt of this model 2, with the dubious SN of 10, and a pic posted by breakaway500.

Note, as Mike said, the position of the numbers is not right for a 2 digit gun. The "10" is very much indented, so the point where when I duplicate the approx. spacing, a 6 digit SN fits. Note on the breakaway500 butt, there is room for 1 more digit.

The red lines are my attempt (not great) at showing how far in the "1" is for the "10". The blue lines are where the "10" would be, using the spacing and application method shown on the breakaway500 revolver. Of course, the red numbers to SN "10" are my additions to show how far in "10" really is. I used a font size similar to the "10" to keep everything scale. So basically, if the SN 10 gun were correct, among everything else wrong with it, I would expect the "10" to lead off where the added red "3" is that I placed, not where it is currently.

The font is larger for "10" as others have said, and could even be the wrong font style for these to boot, but I would need to a loop to be sure of that.

This is called boosting, and is more common on military issue guns than anything else, where an additional mark can mean a big difference.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

I am horrible with the search features but I know sometime in the past 10 years there was a discussion on this gun in this forum. Ed is right in that the then owner played games in providing info / pictures then.


Dan

Dan, Maybe the game has gone into overtime? Ed.

Hoping to get more pictures today


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Here are the rest of the pictures lets see if we can put this to rest!

It has all the standard features of a 3 pin Model 2 with nothing out of the ordinary, except the number. S&W used assembly numbers and FF looks to be what was used on this gun. S&W never stamped both stocks and never stamped the serial number beside the assembly number, since that would be redundant. Someone who did not know how the factory built guns, obviously went over the revolver and added a lot of numbers where the did not belong. It appears that the right stock could have had a serial number near the top where the gouge is. My guess is that the original number was removed, so we will never know what the original number was.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I think that photo number 2 pretty much solves this mystery for me. If my eyes aren't deceiving me, there is a serial number stamped into the back of the left stock panel. This to me is evidence of an attempt to make this gun number correctly.

I am willing to be corrected but my non expert opinion is as follows. Sometime in the history of this gun, an owner took the gun apart and saw that the numbers on the cylinder, frame and stocks did not match. Realizing that they did not match and that knowledgeable collectors would think this a non matching Model 2 Army decided to renumber the gun to make it all matching. Unfortunately, this owner had some knowledge but not all the facts.

The butt serial number was removed and the number found on the frame and cylinder was added. This same number was added to the stocks and now appears on the inside of both stock panels. My recollection is that S&W only ever numbered the back of the right stock panel.

The serial number 10 would certainly make the gun very desirable but the owner failed to realize that a three pin frame could not bear this low of a number.

Again I mean no disrespect to the OP and am merely expressing my thoughts based on my limited knowledge from being around S&W's for the last 47 years.

PS: After rereading my post and going back over the thread again I noticed one more pertinent detail and perhaps someone else has already commented on this. The assembly number noted in several photos on the frame, cylinder and rear of the barrel assembly is FF 10. If you notice the font of the number 1 in the FF 10 in all three locations, the top of the one is parallel to the bottom foot. The one that is stamped on the butt of the frame as the serial number and the inside of the stock panels is shaped as follows 1 with the top part of the one angled downward. This to me is even clearer evidence that someone has messed with this firearm. Luckily, it is an antique and not considered a firearm by ATF standards so we won't need to get into a sky is falling discussion about the serial number being altered and confiscation and penalties of death etc.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Well glad we got to the bottom of it. Like I said this is not my gun and I was only asked to find out more about it. Unfortunately the piece is a consignment piece and now my friend needs to break the news to the owner...


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I think the most important evidence is the gouge on the inside of the right stock. Compared to my examples, I see that this gouge is in the area of where the company normally placed their serial numbers.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This #2 Army isn't correct. I'd like to add an additional question: In post #30 (the latest from younggun22) and the sixth photo from the top; the right side of the revolver (shown on the left of the photo) doesn't seem to show the end of the hammer stud protruding from the frame. Why? There appears to be a hole where the stud should protrude.

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Mike Maher #283

The stud must be backed out. Pluss, the sideplate screw should be close to flush, but seems to protrude from the other side. Maybe just a loose hammer stud??

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Gary
SWCA 2515

As we now know for sure, the guns not right. It wasn't right ten yrs. ago when it first popped up here but we could get any answers from the owner then. Congrats to younggun22 for following through with good pictures. Ed.

This Mosel 2 Army is currently listed for sale on the Collectors Firearms site.

Smith & Wesson № 2 Army Serial #10 for sale

Caveat emptor

Regards,

I aint throwing a wrench in here, but has anyone personally handled and examined this piece? Pics are tough to work off. Best.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Yup, Feb 9th I walked into a new LGS in town having learned that they had some old Smith & Wessons. Boy did he and the S&W #10 gun was there. Knowing so little about a revolver this old I told him about this website. Yup, I held it and was admittedly in awe. The rest has been a learning experience. I did buy a pristine 36 no dash out of the dozen or so nice S&Ws that he had.

old 1911 fan

Take a common model like a Model 1899 and put a barrel lug or a square butt on it. Does anyone need anything more than a few images to tell it was not correct and could not have left the factory in that configuration? You cannot add a feature like the 3 pin Model 2 frame to a gun that was manufactured before the improvement was even invented. Intentionally gouge out the serial number on the right stock, stamp serial numbers on parts that do not have serial numbers, or stamp serial numbers and assembly numbers on the same part, why would you do that at the factory?

As Powderman noted, bottom line is that I guess all the experts did no good convincing the seller that they owned a fraudulent gun, since it is for sale at a ridiculous price and misleading description.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Collectors Firearms lists a lot of guns and is posting new offerings all the time. Sometimes I see one that I think is reasonably priced, but most are at the high edge of what the gun ought to bring IMO. I would think CF would be very interested in the authenticity of their offerings because the reputation of a seller in this business is of paramount importance.

This is a great thread, one of the best I have seen on any forum.

Mike
Pictures don't lie. "Pics are tough to work off". Not true. If a gun has features only found on later guns, what more proof do you need. Yes, a hands on examination would be wonderful, but "pics" are all we got, and "pics" in this case are all we need. Maybe this was a prototype, maybe it was a tool room gun, maybe it was the personal property of Bo Derek, (get it, 10)! Some of the people who have responded to this thread eat, sleep and breathe early Smith & Wesson. I've learned more from them than what I've read in most books. I understand your hesitation in what is being said, but, these guys are experts, I respect their conclusions. This gun ain't right!
Don Mundell
Assistant Historian
SWHF

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Don Mundell

Well, I sent an email off to the seller two weeks ago and laid out the story about the authenticity issues with the gun. Also reminded them that I had purchased quite a few guns from them over the years but got no response, not even a thanks and we will look into it. What is worse is that they have not changed a word of their description, so maybe we will be going over this gun a third time with a new owner.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Great news. I received an email from Collectors Firearms, responding to the email I had noted above. Happy to report that this store is a real stand-up shop that reviewed this thread and added the following comments.

It is being pulled off of our website as I type this. A full refund including the shipping was made both ways to the customer. We made an honest mistake and this gun will either be relisted and properly described, or more than likely it will go into my safe and never be on the market again

We have all sent off comments to alert sellers of mis-identified guns they are putting up for sale, but almost always ignored. Be advised that Collectors Firearms is still the quality shop I remember over the decades when I was actively purchasing antiques from them. I would gladly do business with them again without hesitation.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

That's nice to see.

I for one will be contacting that store and thanking them for their honesty! It's good to see them putting their reputation before the dollar.

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Don Mundell

Its amazing to realize that you are able to recognize things not correct and then point it out is very impressive. I read through this with interest so thanks for an interesting and informative subject!

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Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

As a broker of gun collections for estates, museums, etc, I have been dealing with the various auction houses over the last 50+ years and found that when I tell them they have a suspicious gun listed, and provide proof or identify the incorrect areas of the gun, they usually pull the gun from the action and notify the consignor of the situation, or correct the description to alert bidders of an incorrect gun. Sometimes the gun is owned by the auction house and they then part it out or destroy it. I have even been sent an unsolicited fee from auctions for alerting them to the situation. They are correctly protecting their reputation. The only auction house that refused to withdraw a 100% fake S&W, is Rock Island Auctions. They auctioned off a" WW2 S&W Trench gun" , a gun with fake Rock Island Armory stamps ( done expertly), even after I had the curator at the Rock Island Armory museum tell them it was a fake. The gun was a S&W Model 916 12ga pump shotgun made in the 1980s, long after WW2. A wealthy S&W collector bought the gun at the auction for $8,000, knowing it was a fake, to keep it from getting into the hands of an innocent buyer. S&W, of course, never made any trench guns for WW2, only Victory Model revolvers. Ed.

Looks like Model 2 Army, SN:10 is up for auction!

Caveat emptor.

SMITH & WESSON No2 OLD MODEL .32 RIMFIRE REVOLVER

Regards