Hi, I'm new member to the S&W Forum, but have lurked and obtained tons of great info over the years. Thanks to all in advance!

I have the opportunity to purchase a .32 Top Break, 6-6.5", nickel, black S&W stocks, and it is labeled as a "5th Model". The unusual (to me) feature is that it has a side latch like a swing-out cylinder model would have. Also, it is obviously a .32, but the caliber is not marked anywhere; barrel sides, frame, nada. Has cylinder locking slots like a modern revolver.

The cylinder is snug (doesn't quite spin on its own), timing is good. Bore looks like it was a bit rusted and brushed out - so micro-pits throughout, but fairly decent rifling intact. exterior has lots of tiny rust spots but about 80% of plating is intact

Sorry I didn't get to take any photos, but I presumed that a Top Break with a side latch would be unusual enough to zero in on the model. Any info would be welcome. Thanks!

Look in the book (any of your choosing) for "perfected model". There's a single shot so called, but what you're after is the revolver whose frame was borrowed to use for the single shot.

Ralph Tremaine

And you might come upon a hurdle looking for .32's-----maybe not, but I'm thinking the perfected revolver is a .38-------only.

Thanks for the info..."Perfected" was the key word!

I think
I'm gonna buy it...then worry about the 32 vs 38 question!

If things dont spin, just a little spray with a good gun oil. Just dont start cleaning and un-screwing things. They are great little guns that show the progression to the HE with the swing out cylinder. Best.

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Mike 2796
SoFo Bunch member

Not having a Perfected model..and reading conflicting stories..do you need to do both the top and side latches together to open the revolver,or will either latch alone do the deed?

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My Daddy was a pistol..

Howdy

There seems to be some confusion here. The only revolver that S&W ever made that was a Top Break with a side latch was the 38 Double Action Perfected model. Not the same as the 38 Double Action 5th Model. The Perfected was built on a completely redesigned frame, completely different than the 38 Double Action models 1st through 5th models.

This is a photo of a 38 Double Action 3rd model. It is very similar to the 38 Double Action 5th model. Note the trigger guard is a separate piece attached to the frame. Note the side plate is on the left side of the gun.






The 38 Double Action Perfected model was only chambered for 38 S&W, not 38 Special. It was not chambered for any 32 caliber cartridge. The frame and the internal mechanism were completely different than the earlier 38 Double Action models. In addition to having the thumb latch, the trigger guard was integral to the frame and the side plate was on the right side of the gun. Standard barrel lengths were 3 1/4", 4", 5", and 6".

Yes, you must push the thumb piece forward and lift the top latch simultaneously to open one. Just operating one or the other independently will not open the gun. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what he is talking about. The idea was that if a bad guy had a standard Top Break pointed at him he could reach forward and disable the gun by lifting up the top latch. That's why the Perfected had the thumb latch. You have to work them both at once to open the gun.

The blued Perfected at the top of this photo shipped in 1912 and the nickel plated one shipped in 1917.







The Perfected model was a five shot 38. You should be able to see all five chambers in this photo. Well, actually you can only see four, there is one more hidden behind the extractor.





The Third Model Single Shots, sometimes known as the Perfected Target Pistol, used the same frame as the Perfected, but they lacked the thumb piece. They were opened like any other Top Break, by lifting the latch at the rear of the barrel.

Thanks for the wealth of info Driftwood!

The piece in question is the Perfected model, 38 S&W, 6" barrel. I may have been generous in my original assessment of the nickel, but it still looks like a reasonably serviceable revolver for what I paid.

So, what is a value range on this? Are these scarce? I could not find very many for sale online to compare.

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Nice looking revolver with lots of patina. That long barrel is just right for it! Looks like a rare beast to me. Make a proud addition to any collection. I'd shoot it.

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My Daddy was a pistol..

33XXX would be pre-hammer block safety, but you might be interested in reading about these guns. http://smith-wessonforum.com/blog.php?b=109

There were a lot of this model made,but not too many go up for sale. This and the 38 Single Action, 3rd Model were popular export revolvers with many going to Europe and South America. Value maybe $400 a $450 today?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

When I took over all of the weapons in our department we had four of those revolvers in our inventory. They were old revolvers that had been issued back in the 20's or so. Each of ours were blue and had a lanyard ring in the grip. They had an unusual black leather swivel type holster and I was told that they used to be used by motorcycle officers back during prohibition. Obviously I wasn't around back when these were in use and the story is just what was told to me by another older officer. We kept one to put in a display case with other antique police items and the other three were traded to a dealer who gave us $800.00 per gun and holster credit towards the purchase of AR-15's.

Howdy Again

The Perfected model was made from 1909 until 1920. Serial numbers ran from 1 through 59,400.

My blue one has a SN of 99XX and it shipped in 1912. My nickel plated one has a SN of 552XX and it shipped in 1917. Of course you can't assume anything with S&W, but I'll bet the one you are looking at shipped somewhere in the middle of that.

The mechanisms of these things is very similar to a modern S&W side swing revolver, except as noted they did not have a hammer block. So be careful if you shoot it and don't drop it.

Nickel finish was common on this model, perhaps even the majority, but the 6" barrel is scarce. It may also be the angle/perspective on the photo, but the trigger guard may be bent upward?

They are hard to find here. There was a version specifically built for export that did not have the thumb piece, only the top latch - have seen photos of one but not in person. Enjoy!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Welcome to the forum what a neat first post. I only have one of these Perfected models but it is one of my favorites here is the link to my post about it Smith & Wesson Perfected with Ivory Updated . Yours looks to me to be a nice one with a uncommon barrel length don't be afraid to shoot it as long as timing and lock up are good .

Mine letters to October, 1913 with a 3.25" barrel and pearl grips.

free image upload

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Only difference Fool/Mule-ears

Picked up a 6" a few years ago, but I think it was the only long barrel Perfected I have had a chance to buy. Some call the 6" rare, but I suspect they put as many on their Perfected revolvers as they put on their 38 Double Actions, maybe 10%. Both models used the same barrel. As stated above the truly rare example of a Perfected was made without the thumb latch.

My 6" came with a set of target stocks that fit very well to the gun. Roy Jinks made a comment that even though these revolvers had standard forged sights, they were popular target guns in Europe and South America and target stocks could have been added to any purchase for a small price. Mine is what I call a 38 Perfected, 1st Change since it has the late in production hammer block with 1914 patent stamp on the barrel. These are somewhat scarce, since less than 2000 out of the 57,500 total were made. As for the ultra-rare Perfected, I have an image of one example. No latch and 6" barrel definitely qualifies as rare.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks to all for the detailed info, and images, too.

I notice that on this one, the firing pin does not rest on the primer, as it does in my Third Model, so without an actual hammer block, it is only slightly safer to carry with 5; not that it is intended as a CCW!

So, even with the "patina of experience", am I correct in assuming I did OK at $170 OTD?

Yes, you did fine and then some on the price .

The cylinder stickiness is probably from years (decades) of congealed oil. Removing it for cleaning it is pretty easy, or after removing the stocks you can flush the area out with spray brake cleaner and lightly re-lubricate. The same likely applies to the internals and cleaning it the same way should work.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The "foot" on the hammer that contacts the rebound slide in addition to providing the "rebounding hammer" feature also serves as a hammer block of sorts. A sharp enough rap on the hammer can cause the foot to break and fire a cartridge in battery.

Gary, in the ad that you posted, it mentions spiral springs. What springs are they referring to?

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

To maybe help you out on the cylinder stickiness, I bought mine at a good price because it had the same issue. Turned out to be the cylinder spring that was slightly deformed on one end and it caught the cylinder when it was rotating. Check it out since it is a simple fix. The pictures are of the defective spring in my 6" Perfected and one of my other Perfected's that shows the spring as it should look.

Guy, there are several spiral springs on this model. The spring I mentioned above is actually the ejector spring, which is the same as for the 38 DAs. Also in the cylinder assembly is a smaller spiral spring that engaged the latch, which provides pressure to insert the rear latch pin into the frame. The thumb-piece is backed up by a return spring. The cylinder stop spring used to be flat, but on the Perfected Model, it became the 5th screw in front of the trigger guard that retains the spiral stop spring. There is a sear spring. The only other one I can think of is the rebound spring that you can see in Driftwood Johnson's photo.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Howdy Again

This brings up one of my pet peeves. This vexes me almost as much as 45 Long Colt. The springs we are talking about are not spirals. They are helixes. When a football player throws the perfect pass, it is not a spiral, it is a helix. The rifling in a gun barrel is not a spiral, it is a helix. A spiral staircase is not a spiral, it is a helix.

A spiral is a flat, two dimensional figure. It is a curve on a plane that winds around a fixed center point at a continuously increasing or decreasing distance from the point. A helix is a three dimensional figure. The diameter is constant, but the curve extends in three dimensional space. That is why geneticists call the DNA molecule the Double Helix. It is two intertwined helixes.

In the picture below, the curve on the left is a spiral, the curve on the right is a helix.






With all due respect to Mssrs. Smith and Wesson, they got it wrong in that old catalog. Their springs are helical springs, not spiral springs.




OK, I feel better now. Where was I?

Here is an exploded view of my nickel plated Perfected. You can see the helical rebound slide spring below the rebound slide, not much different than the rebound slide spring in a modern S&W revolver. You can also see the little helical spring for the cylinder stop to the right of the trigger guard, again not much different than the same spring in a modern S&W. I did not remove the thumb piece because the nut (yes, it is a nut that holds it in place, not a screw) was frozen and I did not want to force it. So the little helical spring for the bolt/hammer stop bar is still in position as is the helical spring inside the cylinder assembly.

What I did learn from this thread is that some of the later Perfecteds had the side plate mounted hammer block in them. I did not know that, so thanks for that information.




If you want to see a helical spiral sometime, open up any battery operated device. The cone shaped spring that contacts the negative end of a battery is a helical spiral spring.

Don't anybody get me started on 45 Long Colt.

I once owned a .45 Long Colt that had a spiral shaped helical spring.

Just kidding DJ.

Very cool guns and I would guess that they are the transition piece between the top breaks and the hand ejectors. The 6" barrel definitely makes this gun look neat and the fact that it has both a thumb piece and the top break lock makes it even cooler.

Thanks for sharing and now I have another one to add to the want list. That makes 25 this week.

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James Redfield
LM #497

James, actually the Perfected revolver came to market several years after the introduction of the I frame and K frame revolver. Its introduction is still somewhat of a mystery. When introduced in 1909, they used the Model 1903 frame and mechanism. There may have been a segment of buyers who still demanded top-break revolvers - maybe foreign markets??

And before Driftwood goes spiraling out of control, the use of this term has been promulgated for many years and, right or wrong, is going to continue to be used, so might as well get used to it.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary, then perhaps with the introduction of the "new" thumb latch hand ejector revolvers it was deemed an improvement to the still desired top break design. Since the top break, IIRC, had the auto eject extractor and the HE's were manual, perhaps S&W thought that this hybrid would maintain sales of the former design.

S&W was not one to give up on one of their designs easily and I still firmly believe that the kit guns introduced in the mid 30's was their attempt to keep their .22/32 HFT platform alive albeit with a now shorter 4" barrel.

Some of these things we will probably never know for sure unless Roy Jinks or the SWHF find more answers as the S&W factory records are digitized.

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James Redfield
LM #497

murphydog wrote: "There was a version specifically built for export that did not have the thumb piece, only the top latch - have seen photos of one but not in person." I can take photos of one of these revolvers but even with my wife's Photo Shop software, I haven't been able to figure out how to size the photo to publish it here. Photo Shop is in inches and this forum is in pixels. I don't seem to have the ability to translate this information. Can anyone help?

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Mike Maher #283

Mike, change your photoshop settings to pixels vs. inches.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I had one I bought many years back. Nickel plated Perfected model in 99% condition. Serial # 1xx. Made in 1909. Think I gave 50 bucks. It's long gone now.