I am working on a massacre site that happened in 1871... the two weapons were a Spencer rifle and a S&W pistol...the information I have found just says a S&W top-break revolver...but not the caliber....in 1871 would the bullet be a .32 or a .38 ? which would be most common in the west ? Ideas?

As part of my research I bought a Spencer and a Winchester of that age...and fired both to see why the Spencer was chosen...it turned out easy...both fired about the same speed but the Spencer reloaded much, much faster using extra tubes...
I also assume that is why the S&W was also chosen over the Colt or any other.

Once the weather gets better I am returning with a metal detector to find and chart the bullets on the site... This was a well planned out massacre where 30 indians were killed...I am only guessing but to kill 30 you had to fire over 200 bullets

Thanks
Joel

One possibility is the First Model American, AKA Model no. 3 1st model single action.
Produced from 1870-1872.
A few chambered for .44 Henry rimfire, most were .44 American (44 S&W).

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

This should have been in the Antique section....I just put it in the wrong place and can not see how to change the location....sorry...
Joel

I had never thought it would be that large...but you are probably correct...I just assumed that it would be a .32 or .38 ... I will know for sure later this summer when I start finding bullets that are other than Spencer bullets..

I'm curious to know more about the incident and the nature of your research. Are you saying 30 Indians were killed with two firearms, the Spencer and the S&W? And you guess 200 rounds were fired from a six shot revolver and a seven shot rifle? That's a rough average of 15 reloads or 6-7 per firearm.

I know a little about western history and armed conflicts with Native Americans. Using only the information you provide, it doesn't add up unless the shooter(s?) were killing women and children unable to disperse and unprotected by warriors.

The only Winchester available in 1871 would have been the 1866 "Yellowboy" chambered in .44 Henry rimfire. Do you know the Spencer caliber?

Not trying to be a jerk, just genuinely curious to know more about the incident and why you make the assumptions you do.

TAROMAN's suggestion is the most likely. According to Wikipedia it was the US Army sidearm form 1871 to 1873. S&W had produced .22, .32, and .38 rimfire revolvers by that point in time. I'm not sure which calibers would have been in a top-break revolver. The centerfire 32 and 38 calibers didn't come about until after 1871.

If it was a top break (and not a tip-up) it could have been in .44 American or .44 Henry RF in 1871. There were tip-up S&Ws (and similar guns from other makers) in .22 RF, .32 RF, and .38 RF in use by 1871.

"I am working on a massacre site that happened in 1871... the two weapons were a Spencer rifle and a S&W pistol...the information I have found just says a S&W top-break revolver...but not the caliber....in 1871 would the bullet be a .32 or a .38 ? which would be most common in the west ?"

Just how reliable is that information identifying the guns used as being Spencer and S&W? And Spencer rifles came in several different calibers also - .56-.46, .56-50, .56-52, and .56-56. All were RF. Then there were also the 1860 Henry and Winchester 1866 lever action rifles, both in .44 RF. There were also cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers (usually Colt and Remington) in fairly widespread use at that time. In 1871, CF cartridges weren't exactly commonplace.

It would appear that two types of firearms may have been used. As written the inference is that one person armed with two firearms inflicted the damage. Obviously, if if this was a military action, most likely a platoon size number of troopers , or more, would have been involved. We do have a few deplorable events in our history.

Jack

The poster doesn't tell us enough to really respond accurately, other than the event date of 1871. The only S&W top break at that time was the American Model in .44 caliber. if the event was involving Indians vs. the US Army, then it's possible the .44 American revolver could have been involved, however I doubt that Army troops were using Spencers in 1871.if the event involved the Calif. militia vs. Indians, any type if firearms in production in 1871 could have been involved. We need better info. from the poster. Ed.

"I doubt that Army troops were using Spencers in 1871."

Spencer carbines (the model 1865 in caliber .56-.50 RF) were used by U. S. Cavalry units in the west until 1873, when the Springfield .45-70 trapdoor carbine was first issued. The model 1865 carbine differed from the model 1863 used during the Civil War by having a 2" shorter barrel and being chambered for the .56-.50 cartridge rather than the .56-.56. There were also issued to the Cavalry some model 1863 carbines from the CW re-barreled to .56-.50. By 1871, there were likely very few Spencer rifles still in infantry service. And I suspect the Spencer rifles and carbines may have lasted considerably longer in both state militia and civilian service. I remember long ago seeing a Spencer carbine which had been used by guards at the Ohio Penitentiary, along with some trapdoor Springfield carbines and one M1882 short Springfield rifle.

Regarding the .56-.50 cartridge used in the model 1865, it is generally considered to be the very first metallic cartridge using an inside-lubricated bullet.

Just to clean up a couple of loose ends here. The first picture posted is not a Model No. 3, 1st, but rather a Model No. 3, 2nd. The 2nd Model was not made until 1872. The original caliber was officially called 44-100, and changed to 44 American in late 1871. Also, you would not find any 38 rimfire S&Ws out there in the wild west. There would be a good chance that in the early west, a Model 2 in 32 RF would have been found in holsters. There were over 77,000 made and after the Civil War, lots would have been available for carry guns. George Armstrong Custer had a set of Model 2 revolvers. For reference, the 44 American bullet was just over .43" in diameter. The 32 RF would measure just over .31".

As for why S&W instead of Colt was not because of how they loaded, but they were the only large caliber revolver out there that were originally designed as a cartridge gun. The famous Colt Peacemaker was not yet on the market and all Colt revolvers in use were converted percussion revolvers, plus other manufacturers guns would not have made much of an impact on the market in 1871.

Here is a Model No. 3, 1st Model.

Attached Images

Model 3 1st.JPG (96.9 KB, 27 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Sorry... In the recorded history there was 3 shooters... I suspect there were more...indeed they caught unarmed indians at a cave site and the shooting was well planned out and had a hidden motive....

The reason given for the S&W was that the 56-50 Spencers were tearing the women and Children up too much.... this is a really gory tale that is a cover-up (I think) for what I am trying to prove out... That is why I felt the S&W smaller caliber handguns were used...the .44 would be just as terrible as the Spencer... I would love to tell you my research and the reasons I know it was a cover-up but it would give away the book that I am writing....I need actual proof to back up the real story of the cover-up.

This was not a military action...just some towns folk...and for a really flimsy reason (as told) the description is as reported in the local newspaper of the time... I believe I know who really did the deed and their motive...and am in the process of proving it out...

The article in the newspaper of that time clearly states that the guns used were Spencers and S&W revolvers....I believe the S&W was chosen due to it's quick loading over the Colt....as the Spencer was much quicker than any Winchester because of it's spare loading tubes...spare loaded tubes really speed it's rate of fire...this was a planned shooting I believe..

I have never owned an antique S&W and don't think I know the difference between a top-break and a tip-up Smith and Wesson...I assumed they all were top-breaks as I did not know of the other... what I think is the reason the S&W were chosen was due to the piece that when the revolver it opened lifts out the empty shells so the revolver can be reloaded faster than the Colt....

The Model 2 chambered in 32 Long rimfire would not have loaded quickly. You had to remove the cylinder and push out the empties, then reload. The cylinder would then have to be replaced in the revolver and the barrel latched in the frame. Below is a picture of a Model 2 as compared to a Model No. 3 prop gun for size comparison. Correct ammo for each caliber is also shown. I am not convinced that there is much to the theory of rapid reloading, and would not place any bets as to why someone brought a S&W to the scene of the crime other than that is what they happened to own at the time.

Attached Images

P1010002.jpg (70.4 KB, 25 views)

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Gary
SWCA 2515

This was a very well planned out massacre....I am sure they planned for speed .... the person I believe carried out this plan was very wealthy..
Who would have 200 or more rounds or more with them if not for a reason...

Some random thoughts.......................

"The article in the newspaper......" do you have a second source? I don't know that the press has ever been known to be accurate with gun facts.

Guns were not any cheaper in 1871 than they are today so unless your shooters had some serious cash...... more likely than not they were armed with Civil War leftovers.......like the Spenser.... vs state of the art Model 3s.

IMO/random thoughts the Spencer's would have been primary.... with the handguns as backup.

My guess the rimfire tip-ups in .22 and .32 would have been much more common in 1871 as they had been around awhile vs the new 1870 Model 3.

Also fit your reference/suggestion that a smaller caliber used.

Three men ..... Spencer and a brace of pistols.......19 rounds/man x3 = 57 rounds for 30 unarmed Indians (women & children in a cave).

Trapped in a cave....... one (or two) could reload their Spencers while the others prevented any runners...................

Handguns used to finish off any wounded/ women and children...................... give each a final shot to the head..........

Just saw your last post #16 ..... going to a massacre of 30+ Indians with 66 rounds per man is not a lot in my opinion.

Spencer and a revolver..... 13 rounds...... and 4 reloads for each weapon.

If your "guy" was wealthy why not spring for 3 Henry rifles ........ each holding 16 rounds.


As an .....FYI at the Little Big Horn each of Custer's troops carried 100 carbine rounds and 24 for their Colts.... with an additional 50 rd/man with the pack train. ( FWIW Wikipedia)

Just an FYI in-case you didn't know but all the Colts at that time would have been cap and ball revolvers, which would be very burdensome to reload. The Single Action Army didn't come out until shortly after then. If you already knew this than feel free to ignore...

"The reason given for the S&W was that the 56-50 Spencers were tearing the women and Children up too much.... this is a really gory tale that is a cover-up (I think) for what I am trying to prove out."

Since when would anyone planning a massacre give a whit about how badly the victims' bodies were torn up?

Was it stated that the Spencer(s) were .56-.50?

And how would it be determined if Spencer loading tubes had been used? They are not necessary for loading, but simply shorten reloading time a bit.

Two things - Many C&B revolvers (Colt and Remington) were converted (or made new) to use metallic cartridges during that period, which did speed reloading. There were several ways the conversion was done. Second, some of the old gunslingers carried spare loaded cylinders for their C&B revolvers. Slow to change cylinders, but much faster than charging an empty cylinder in the gun with powder and bullets.

Not correct. As DeWalt states, many Colts and Remingtons were converted to cartridge revolvers before the Peacemaker came out. I had already noted that in an earlier post. There was the Thuer conversion brought out in 1868 and the Richards conversions and tens of thousands were converted.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Was this the Kingsley Cave massacre in California when almost all of the members remaining of the Yahi tribe were exterminated? It allegedly was perpetrated by four settlers.

"In April 1871, four cowboys hunted a small band of Yahis. While working in the Sacramento Valley, the four men came across a trail of blood, presumably from one of the cows the men herded. Following the track, the cowboys flushed some Yahis cutting chunks of flesh from a dead steer. The Yahis fled the scene. Rather than pursue them, the cowboys returned to their camp, found a hunting dog, and stalked the Indians to a cave. The hunters opened fire, killing about thirty Yahis in what one historian has called ‘‘the last known large massacre of California Indians.’’
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BTW - at that time, California was paying a bounty on dead indians. Apparently none of the "cowboys" involved committed an illegal act of genocide.

Maybe I'm wrong, but what I'm seeing about the Thuer conversions is that they weren't very well received or popular and the Richards conversion patent wasn't granted until 1971 and production didn't ramp up for a couple years.

Additionally I have heard that the use of the "second" cylinder on percussion revolvers is more of a current day / Hollywood legend than actual practice back then and that historians have gone through civil war records and letters looking for any records of this practice and not finding much if any support for the practice.

There are numbers out there that indicate those two conversions totaled over 45,000 from 1868 into the 1870s at the factory alone. Thuer conversions recorded were 5000 done at the factory before the Richards conversions started. By mid-1871, only about about 3500 Model 3s had shipped, with 1000 of those going to the military in March 1871.

Most likely, there were more Thuer conversions out there than Model 3s in 1871.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I can see swapping cylinders on a Remington but not a Colt. You drop the wedge in the heat of battle...

I think more commonly they just carried multiple pistols and dropped one when it was empty. I remember reading that when Bloody Bill was killed he had his saddlebags full of pistols.

I think the theories above are all possible, but finding lead projectiles at the site will be the key. They might turn out to be .22 Short, .32/.38 S & W (I think most likely), or .31/.36/.44 round balls for all we know. If the "settlers" had access to firearms, even from a well-funded individual, I'm not sure they would have been provided with then state-of-the-art firearms like S & W model 3 top-breaks, or even cartridge conversions. More likely to have been something inexpensive and readily available.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

From what I've read, a goodly portion of the guns that made it west after the Civil War were military surplus, so Spencer rifles are plausible. Still, for years after the the center fire cartridge became standard, muzzle loaders and cap-locks were still common due to logistics, especially in more remote areas. If an organized affair, I could see a militia acquiring a quantity of S&W Model 3s or similar, but how common they were at that time would be open for debate. During the same time- frameS&W was trying to interest the US Govt, and was probably working on the Russian project. S&W models 1s & 2s (22 &32) might have been more likely to be found.

"Maybe I'm wrong, but what I'm seeing about the Thuer conversions is that they weren't very well received or popular and the Richards conversion patent wasn't granted until 1871 and production didn't ramp up for a couple years."

Regarding cartridge conversions to C&B revolvers, during the 1871 period converted Remingtons were by far the most common. Remington began in 1868 by purchasing rights to use the Rolin White patent from S&W (at $1/gun, a substantial amount then). About 4600 Remington New Model .44 cartridge conversions were made to .46 Rimfire. Later, they were also made chambered in .44 and .45 centerfire. Additionally there were private firms and individuals which did Remington conversions on older C&B revolvers after 1870. There is no way to tell how many were available, but a considerable number of converted Remingtons existed by 1871. Colts are a different matter. Beginning in 1869, Colt made only the so-called "Thuer" conversion to the Colt 1860 Army which did not infringe upon the Rolin White patent, but used a rather odd .44 metallic cartridge which loaded from the front of the cylinder. Colt also manufactured these cartridges. It is estimated that no more than 5000 factory-built examples were made by Colt in the 1869-72 period prior to the Colt-Richards cartridge conversion, after the Rolin White patent expired. However, as in the case of the Remington, there were some outside gunsmiths/firms who also performed conversions of older Colt C&B revolvers. In any event, the Remington conversion was a much superior and more popular design than the oddball Colt Thuer. After the expiration of the Rolin White patent, conversions of C&B revolvers to use metallic cartridges became much more common as there were so many older C&B revolvers still in use which could be converted to use cartridges much less expensively than buying a new cartridge revolver. Metallic cartridge conversion revolvers constitute a completely separate area of gun collecting, and there are some which specialize in them, as there are many variations.

Regarding the practice of carrying multiple cylinders for more rapid reloading of C&B revolvers, it was not a routine practice, but there are many anecdotal references to it having been done prior to and during the Civil War, and there are known examples of fitted boxes with a compartment for holding a spare cylinder. Not quite a myth, but not much in the way of reliable supporting evidence either.

As earlier noted, if cartridge revolvers other than Colt or Remington cartridge conversions were used in the massacre, they would have most likely been S&W tip-ups in smaller calibers or the .44 S&W Model 3 American top break. But the possibility cannot be ignored that other cartridge revolvers available at that time could have been used, including Civil War era pinfire revolvers such as the Lefaucheux or the LeMat (both of which were made in significant numbers) and similar designs imported from Europe, or the more unusual American cartridge revolvers of that pre-1871 era such as the Prescott, Pond, and Moore. Nor can the use of unconverted C&B revolvers be dismissed.

If the perpetrators had any shooting ability at all, and killing under slaughterhouse conditions, I suspect 50-60 rounds would have been more than enough to do the job on those 30 unfortunate Indians. There wouldn't have been much reloading required.

As previously mentioned, one would need to recover fired bullets and cases in the area to develop any confidence about what guns were used. And that may be very difficult to do after nearly 150 years as I would assume the site has already been well picked over.