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Old 03-24-2017, 10:59 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Default Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver

I am curious how to value this NM No 3 revolver. It IS a NM No 3 with a fair amount of original finish, but the cylinder has been cleaned with an abrasive material, causing much loss of original finish, as have focal areas of the frame. It shipped in 1900 and has a special order serrated trigger. Also, the rear blade snapped and someone filed down the front sight to compensate for this. Sal Raimondi sold me an original front sight blade, and Ralph Tremaine sent me plans to recreate the rear blade, but nothing has been changed out on this revolver as it currently hits where you point it. This IS a NM No 3, Target Model, and has some condition; on the other hand, it has some significant condition issues, so unsure on how to assign a concrete value to this one.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:25 AM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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I don't know if there are any prices set in concrete. The revolver certainly has character..but most collectors want originality so putting it back "stock" would make it more desirable. Id say in the $1.8-2.2K range for pricing,but I'm not a professional appraiser: I base that solely on my own buying prospectives, and priced much more than that range, I would pass..and I do like model 3s..

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Old 03-25-2017, 07:47 AM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Apparently D. Kirkwood was a well-known gunsmith....I found this on the shotgunworld.com forum.

"Information from "Sides by Sides of The World" written by Charles E. Carder. In 1874, Scottish emigrant David Kirkwood founded a company with a partner Henry Mortimer. They made high quality breech loading guns. This company was located at 23 Elm Street Boston,MA. This company continued in business until the 1950s. Since I can't tell from the photographs if your gun has damascus barrels or not, you should take it to a qualified appraiser like a a gun dealership, a knowledgeable gunsmith or a professional appraiser (not a flea market type) for a hands on evaluation."
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Old 03-25-2017, 03:18 PM
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Kirkwood was more a retailer than a gunsmith. Kirkwood imported shotguns in various stages of finish and finished them for sale. Kirkwood also patented a peculiar rifle action and apparently finished and sold them. In the later years, I believe that Kirkwood was more of a hardware store than anything else. A friend of mine has a Kirkwood Drilling with two 12 ga shotgun barrels with rifled muzzles above a .38-55 rifle barrel.
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Old 03-25-2017, 03:24 PM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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I was curious as to valuation as it doesn't really fit into a standard valuation scale. Perhaps soon I will replace the sights as I do have the replacement target front sight and the ability to fabricate the rear blade. I do know that the front blade is likely serial numbered to this gun. All visible numbers match.

I paid $775 for this one in December of 2013.
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:59 PM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs View Post
I was curious as to valuation as it doesn't really fit into a standard valuation scale. Perhaps soon I will replace the sights as I do have the replacement target front sight and the ability to fabricate the rear blade. I do know that the front blade is likely serial numbered to this gun. All visible numbers match.

I paid $775 for this one in December of 2013.
I will interject that the majority of collectors go for "condition" meaning fine, original finish, minimal wear, and some like the older S&W factory refurbished (which are fine with me too) ... HOWEVER ... I go for mechanical condition as my primary focus with overall condition / originality next.

A choosy collector would likely not purchase this for a collectible value but a shooter would !! Heck I have 2 or 3 in just about this condition that are tight as a clam when barrel is clasped shut, indexes perfectly and locks up (ready to fire) tightly.

I'd say all day long $2K is easy, if it is mechanically sound. How much more than $2k will be better determined on a physical inspection.
I, personally, would prefer to have an "honest" NM3 than one that had been refinished or disguised with touch ups. The lines on your frame look nice and sharp. I'm presuming the barrel rib is just as sharp.

I have paid many times more than that for an 8", 44 Target NM3 in appx 95% original condition and much, MUCH, more than that for a 95% original condition NM3 Target in .45 S&W Schofield, 6.5" barrel.

Be careful if you find one of the latter because there were many made in .450 British but the ones in .450 are spattered with British proofs in various, very obvious, spots. The British .450 NM3s are not very sought after. I know a dealer that has one for sale for at least the past 5 years. Beside that he is asking too much for the condition it is in, it just doesn't raise an eyebrow for a hard core S&W Model 3 collector.

Years back i would purchase a NM3 that needed a hammer or extractor etc but I would not purchase any that were feeling loose or "clicky" when clasped shut.

NOW, if I find a NM3 that is mechanically sound, lacking only some finish or a few bumps and dings ... I'm an interested party.

So many members and shooters (especially the SASS guys and others who enjoy shooting the older guns) seems recently found out there are other "old west" guns than Colt SAAs.

Why would you carry a Colt SAA in the 1870s when you could load shoot and reload the S&W 4 times in the same time it takes to shoot and reload 6 in the Colt SAA ? Beside that, I'm just partial to S&Ws. They WERE and still ARE the finer made gun.
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:58 AM
mrcvs mrcvs is offline
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Default Case coloured trigger guard

Ever since I purchased this revolver, I believed that someone took the trigger guard off at some point and cleaned it, causing a grey appearance. Not sure why they would do that, but this is what I believed for a very long time. I had not really handled a pristine example until recently, and learned that a case coloured trigger guard is standard, and you can see hints of case colouring in this photograph. Also, easy to miss the hints of case colouring when the fairly rare feature of a knurled trigger is in the same photograph.

In my experience, a knurled trigger is RARE. However, my observations may or may not reflect the true rarity, or commonality, of a knurled trigger. Any idea as to how common or rare this feature is?
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Last edited by mrcvs; 04-26-2017 at 07:17 AM. Reason: Added brief statement with question
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Old 04-26-2017, 08:07 AM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcvs View Post
Ever since I purchased this revolver, I believed that someone took the trigger guard off at some point and cleaned it, causing a grey appearance. Not sure why they would do that, but this is what I believed for a very long time. I had not really handled a pristine example until recently, and learned that a case coloured trigger guard is standard, and you can see hints of case colouring in this photograph. Also, easy to miss the hints of case colouring when the fairly rare feature of a knurled trigger is in the same photograph.

In my experience, a knurled trigger is RARE. However, my observations may or may not reflect the true rarity, or commonality, of a knurled trigger. Any idea as to how common or rare this feature is?
That trigger guard is just fine. That's the color they turn over the years. If they don't look like that, then worry.

IS that knurling or checkering on the trigger. I've never seen a checkered or knurled trigger but I have an 8" target, 44 NM3 that is checkered on the front and rear strap. That's the only NM3 I've seen with that option, too.

The cylinders with color missing are pretty common. My theory on that is the heat from the black powder The black powder guns get VERY hot. When I shoot black powder, I let it cool down awhile in between. The smokeless conversion "gallery" rounds (Phil Sharpe) don't get near as hot.

Oh, also use lots of lube on the bullets. I like to smell the waxy lube with each shot.
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:35 AM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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I believed that, in addition to the trigger guard, the cylinder had received a good scrubbing as well. So heat did that? I do shoot this gun, but not frequently enough, nor rapidly enough, to cause this, so, again, caused by a previous owner.

The trigger letters as such. Later, I will locate the factory letter and provide the exact wording. Any reference to knurling is mine, and Roy's letter might reference it as knurling, or checkering, or...?
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:01 PM
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This is one of my many Target models. This one is a 32-44 shipped December 1902 (thanks to Roy for ship date). This one is 320xx serial number range.

This is one of the NM3s I had ranted about a few months back. It's one of 3 guns that I put away "like new" about 10-20 years ago and pulled it out to find a fine powdery iron oxide inside the lining of zipper case and over the nickel. Thankfully, it was just powder. I never experienced anything like that in my life. Now I store them out of the zipper cases.

This is after a clean up with Pre-Lim, then a quick once-over with Flitz.

Don't you just love seeing the old case colors jump out at you ?

When they're silvery toned on trigger guard ... that's a good thing.

Sal
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Old 04-26-2017, 10:18 PM
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Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver Valuation of "mixed bag" New Model No 3 Target Model revolver  
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Re the knurled triggers being rare, are they rare on later guns like a 1905 4C target , say between 1917 -1922?
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:20 AM
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Although today it might be referred to as checkering, even in a letter, the founders referred to it as checking. FWIW.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:15 AM
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Sal certainly has a way with words------"spattered with British proofs"------I love it!!

I too have one "spattered with British proofs"----a 32-44 Target shipped to Scott & Sons, London. It's spattered with one proof mark in each cylinder flute---and two of them on the barrel. You may rest assured it won't blow up in your face----although with all that iron around those little holes, I'd be pretty certain of that without all the bother.

Ralph Tremaine
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