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Old 03-27-2017, 05:08 PM
Wyatt Burp Wyatt Burp is offline
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What year was my New Model 3 Target made?  
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Default What year was my New Model 3 Target made?

I've posted this one many times but if I was told the year of birth I forgot about it. Its serial # is 258XX and is the one converted from .44 Russian to .22 by a railroad machinist/blacksmith in the '20s. What yeatr was it made?



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Old 03-27-2017, 05:39 PM
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No one can tell what year it was made. Without the entire serial number, people canl guess what year it shipped. I've seen a spread of up to 10 years in shipping dates in as little as 20 serial numbers. Others will be along to guess.
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Old 03-31-2017, 01:39 AM
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What year was my New Model 3 Target made? What year was my New Model 3 Target made? What year was my New Model 3 Target made? What year was my New Model 3 Target made? What year was my New Model 3 Target made?  
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Here's the high side of a bracket: 30261 shipped October 18, 1896.

In the for what it's worth department, this is a special order gun (target, Russian style trigger guard---with checkered spur), so if one were to assume it (as a special order) was shipped immediately after completion, you can add that possibility to your scientific guessing.

Another special order type goody is fire blued screws.The letter does not speak to that---perhaps because I didn't ask about them----don't recall. That said, this is the second gun of the period of mine with fire blued screws. Has anyone ever confirmed such ornamentation is factory?

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 04-16-2017, 12:43 PM
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Others I have ... numbered in the standard NEW MODEL 3 range, would place this guy around 1900-1902 time frame. Ralph's SN in the 30xxx range in 1896 is a fluke.

Your serial number is too high to be in the known "target" serial number range of the .32-44 and .38-44. Also, the .44 Target serial numbers were not part of the "target" SN range of the .32-44 and .38-44.

I have a New Model 3 Target converted to .22LR much like your however mine was likely a .32-44 (or .38-44) from the size of the sleeves in the cylinder. It would make more sense if converted from .32-44 as that ammo went obsolete in the 1920s and as it was a true .32 (.323"). What became popular at a .32 Caliber was then a .32 long or other .32s at .311-.312" that are not correct for a .32-44.
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Old 04-17-2017, 12:27 PM
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So how does a fluke like mine (#30261, shipped October 18, 1896) come about? I suggested it, as a special order, could have been made up and shipped immediately. Possible? Certainly. Unlikely? Almost certainly. Why?

That which is special about it could have come to pass by taking a standard gun from inventory, giving it to the Service Department with instructions to do this, this, and that. I have/have had other top-break targets which letter as targets, which Roy opines were converted from standard exactly as noted---and the other bells and whistles on this gun could have come about the same way. It's worth noting these other guns carry unnumbered latch/sights (AND THIS ONE DOESN'T------suggesting it was made as part of a batch rather than converted.)----as they were converted by the Service Department (one at a time) which had no need to number them. As an aside of possible interest, this gun is pictured in N&J on page 190 (Revised Edition).

For it to be a fluke by other means requires some scientific wild guesses, which others may be able to tell me are not so wild. S&W dogma has it all #3 frames were made prior to 1899 (whatever the magic number is to be an "antique"). Fine-------what does "made" mean? Forged, and set aside---or fitted with its sideplate AND numbered---and set aside? If the latter, then my fluke came about rather simply (regardless of whether it was finished from there to order, or converted from standard configuration). They grabbed a frame from the bin and made up a gun------with no regard for the serial number. Agree----Disagree---and why?

As an aside (which may be entirely irrelevant), I have copies of two pages from the shipping records. They're for 100 1st Model single shots, numbered from 14201 to 14300---and for 100 K-22/40's (the first one's) AND M&P's numbered from 682401 to 682500. The fact these serial numbers are in order suggests they were made pretty much in order as a matter of course. Were they? Or were X number of numbered frames simply grabbed out of a bin to make a batch, and get on with it? And needless to say, what they did with SS's in the late 1800's and with 22/40's and M&P's in 1940 has not the first thing to do with what they did with #3's--but it makes you wonder.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 04-18-2017, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rct269 View Post
So how does a fluke like mine (#30261, shipped October 18, 1896) come about? I suggested it, as a special order, could have been made up and shipped immediately. Possible? Certainly. Unlikely? Almost certainly. Why?

That which is special about it could have come to pass by taking a standard gun from inventory, giving it to the Service Department with instructions to do this, this, and that. I have/have had other top-break targets which letter as targets, which Roy opines were converted from standard exactly as noted---and the other bells and whistles on this gun could have come about the same way. It's worth noting these other guns carry unnumbered latch/sights (AND THIS ONE DOESN'T------suggesting it was made as part of a batch rather than converted.)----as they were converted by the Service Department (one at a time) which had no need to number them. As an aside of possible interest, this gun is pictured in N&J on page 190 (Revised Edition).

For it to be a fluke by other means requires some scientific wild guesses, which others may be able to tell me are not so wild. S&W dogma has it all #3 frames were made prior to 1899 (whatever the magic number is to be an "antique"). Fine-------what does "made" mean? Forged, and set aside---or fitted with its sideplate AND numbered---and set aside? If the latter, then my fluke came about rather simply (regardless of whether it was finished from there to order, or converted from standard configuration). They grabbed a frame from the bin and made up a gun------with no regard for the serial number. Agree----Disagree---and why?

As an aside (which may be entirely irrelevant), I have copies of two pages from the shipping records. They're for 100 1st Model single shots, numbered from 14201 to 14300---and for 100 K-22/40's (the first one's) AND M&P's numbered from 682401 to 682500. The fact these serial numbers are in order suggests they were made pretty much in order as a matter of course. Were they? Or were X number of numbered frames simply grabbed out of a bin to make a batch, and get on with it? And needless to say, what they did with SS's in the late 1800's and with 22/40's and M&P's in 1940 has not the first thing to do with what they did with #3's--but it makes you wonder.

Ralph Tremaine
Ralph, I can't tell whether you're on a comedic or serious rant, educating us, or tossing arrows in my direction but I am NOT in any way even slightly hinting anything is wrong with you NM3, rather than it seems to be an unusual serial number / ship date sequence. the word FLUKE was used in a "good" way not slanderous.

We all know that the SN range on S&Ws could be all over the place at time, and who is to say why ? The batteries on my crystal ball need recharging, so, I'm at a loss to even guess here. I even checked the advice of my magic 8 ball (remember those ?)
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Old 04-18-2017, 01:26 PM
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Ralph, I can't tell whether you're on a comedic or serious rant, educating us, or tossing arrows in my direction but I am NOT in any way even slightly hinting anything is wrong with you NM3, rather than it seems to be an unusual serial number / ship date sequence. the word FLUKE was used in a "good" way not slanderous.

We all know that the SN range on S&Ws could be all over the place at time, and who is to say why ? The batteries on my crystal ball need recharging, so, I'm at a loss to even guess here. I even checked the advice of my magic 8 ball (remember those ?)
Comedic or serious rant? Neither, simply trying to learn from anybody who either knows from experience with a prior fluke, or comes to different conclusions.

Educating us? Not hardly! While I may be able to educate some of us on certain things, this is most certainly not one of them. Anything which might appear to be educational in nature is simply a statement of what I believe is factual/logical/possible----in the hope someone who agrees will agree---or someone who thinks/knows different will disagree---and say why.

Tossing arrows in your direction? Again, not hardly! Arrow tossing is counter productive under the best of circumstances----and can be more than embarrassing when they come back with better aim. I can see why you might have sensed an arrow, just because I chose to repeat the term "fluke". I chose to continue its use because it's deadly accurate----and I was a bit miffed because I didn't think of it first. If I was going to go head to head with anybody about what is and what isn't when it comes to NM #3's, you'd be way down on my list of targets. I figure you've forgotten more than I know about these things.

I know my gun is a fluke. This fluke doesn't even bother me----it is what it is. I have a few others that are downright irritating---not because they're flukes, but because there's not a damn thing I can do about them and the unanswered questions they raise. They are what they are too.

I'm sometimes one of those folks Roy complains about now and again---those who want everything tied up in a neat little package with a ribbon on top--------answers for everything. Sometimes that's not to be----irritating though it may be.

Ralph Tremaine

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Old 04-18-2017, 06:16 PM
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I am no expert but I will lend a little to the conversation based on my study of the .22/32 HFT's.

S&W ran frames in batches. In the first run of the .22/32 HFT's or Bekeart revolvers they ran 1050 frames starting at 138,226 and ending with 139,275. In the case of these revolvers, S&W decided to number the bottom of the left stock panel with a number as each gun was assembled starting with the number 1.

In looking at the serial numbers and these stock imprint numbers, there is absolutely NO correlation between the two.

My supposition is that the floor foreman handed out X number of numbered frames to each assembler and as they completed their work, the stocks were fitted and numbered in succession.

As an example, gun number 138,245 bears stock number 47 and 138,247 bears stock number 36. 138,245 is the 20th serial number in sequence and 138,247 is the 22nd.

Some assemblers must have worked faster than others and I think that frames were handed to them in no order whatsoever.

This is manufacture and assembly. This has absolutely NO bearing on shipping date as that brings in a whole new set of conditions.

Guns were finished, I would guess they then went on to the boxing department and ultimately to the vault awaiting eventual shipment. As guns were stacked in the vault, there was no attention paid to serial number order and when retrieved to go out the door to fill an order again no attention was paid to what serial number the guns were. The numbers were recorded for inventory control but they didn't care if gun 10 shipped before gun 1 as it was only a piece of inventory to them.

As long as dollars were coming in for each package that went out the door, that is all the company cared about.

It is only we collectors of today that care about such details and want everything tied up in neat little packages.

If collectors knew what was thrown in dumpsters and hauled off to the Springfield land fill, like gold boxes etc., we would need a full time medic here on the forum.
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