Pre 1856 S&W Flobert (metallic ctg.) & Rollin white patent (bored through cylinder)

model3sw · #1 05-20-2017, 05:02 PM

In the beginning days of my S&W collecting I had been enthralled by the History of S&W at the very start. I began to seek out a Volcanic (at least a representative model ) and a Flobert Pistol.

In the beginning of Horace Smith and D.B. Wesson's second venture (after selling the Volcanic patents to Oliver Winchester) set out to make a new type of pistol (old Americana name by definition) or revolver with a self contained cartridge.

This presented 2 problems:
1. Louis Flobert was a French gunsmith held the patent(s) on what evolved to the "cartridge" ... and ...
2. Rollin White held the patent to the bored through cylinder.

Read this great little webpage: The model 1: Smith & Wesson's little rimfire. - Free Online Library

I began by trying to find one of each (in nicest shape possible) of each Rollin White patent infringement guns which grew into an overwhelming task which I stopped after purchasing several different types.

I sought and found 2 very nice New Haven Arms Volcanics, one about 20 years ago and it's twin brother about 3 years ago). I did find 2 Flobert pistols about 20 years ago taking them out for the first time last week. Our local club had a speaker on "French" manufactured firearms asking all member to bring whatever they owned.

I had posted pix of the 2 Volcanics a few years back but never the Floberts. I have reposted the picture of the Volcanics which I named for my twin sons. While the value of the Volcanics hit peaks and valleys at times, they still have a definitive value.

In prior years the Volcanics had a moderate to high value for that older time frame. Starting with Gary Garbrecht's Volcanics in 2005 selling at auction in the $40,000 and up (IIRC) they started to take off into the stratosphere.

World's Record: One, identical, New Haven Arms, hit an all time (and VERY suspicious) high auction value in December 2007 Rock Island Auction at a whopping $143,000.00 (buyer's premium included) for the exact same model but with no silver plating over the engraved frame. It was in what was supposed to be the partial bottom only of the original 1857-ish pressboard box and an original "new" find with an elaborate story of how and where it was found.

Read last paragraph: Rock Island cards record-breaking 2007 - Antique Trader

QUOTE: "Not all lever action weapons are rifles, as illustrated by the “Volcanic” series of pistols made by Volcanic Repeating Arms Company, reorganized as New Haven Arms. The Volcanics were very early lever operated pistols made in the 1850s. This sale featured “The Finest Known 3 Inch Volcanic Pistol,” a new in the original box model made in 1857 following the reorganization that marked the beginning of Oliver Winchester’s involvement in the manufacture of repeating weapons. This rare New Haven Arms No. 1 Pocket Pistol, in .31 cal., sold for nearly twice the estimate at $143,750, another record mark for genre." END

The Volcanics are secondary to the main subject ... the Flobert pistols. These, manufactured approximately 1848-1855, I feel are also a intricate part of S&W History.

Coming down the pike now a few decades after I purchased them, I have no clue what the value might be. A member of my local collectors club offered to purchase them. Rightfully so, he asked me for a price. I very candidly stated, I had no clue what a "fair" value would be. He's awaiting my call back.

Is anyone familiar with the Floberts ? The few I had been able to find as past sales, none were near the quality of the 2 I have and another was a cased, matched set priced at $9,500.00. I have one the full size ( like size shape and ornate wood as one of the fore mentioned in the cased set but that set is much more ornate ) and another about 3" shorter.

In comparison, a local collector / weekend show warrior said they don't sell for more than $400 unless you're at the Baltimore or Tulsa or Vegas show. (he offered me $500 for the pair). Now, I'm really confused. LOL. So, they go back in the safe for another 20 years for my son to sell them.

The instructions to pause for caustion is usually "buyer beware". I'd like to add to that, "seller beware", too !

In places I see them listed as "parlor pistols". Why ? I don't know for sure.
I have not ever found a printed reference on Flobert pistols and / or rifles but I see from some offered were also made in Germany, Belgium and other places.

I'm concerned only with the genuine "Flobert". The larger one has an address engraved on the barrel: " Brurr Arq'r a Paris" and not much else. Partial proof marks seem to be covered by the stock. The smaller one, near identical to the larger (wood, barrel, lockwork etc) I cannot find any makers markings but has several gold inlaid swirls and a rifled barrel. Both seem to be .22 / 6mm likely the .22 BB ro CB cap type.

Appear the barrel would need to be removed from the stock to read whatever other markings there may be but at this juncture I would not venture removing the engraved screws as not to risk damaging them.

opoefc · #2 05-22-2017, 10:17 PM

Sal, You have a very nice pair of Flobert pistols. Value is not easy to set on these and only if the buyer & seller can agree on a number, then that's the sale price of the pair, but not necessarily the market value, unless both parties are aware of what other similar guns are bringing in the open market. Flobert "parlor" pistols have been around for ages since th development of the contained cartridge, usually in low velocity .22RF CB or BB sizes, but some times in metric calibers, as they were popular in Europe mostly for use in indoor target matches where they got the name "parlor pistols." You will find them in low quality construction usually, however some, like yours, got the attention of skilled gun makers and are works of art as firearms. For what it's worth, Sal, if your pair were on my sales table at a quality US gun show, the asking price would be in the high 3 figures to start the negotiations with a prospective buyer. If I were placing them online, where European buyers could buy, my price would be higher, as that's where the market is for nice Floberts. Ed.

JSR III · #3 05-23-2017, 07:03 AM

One of the first guns that I was allowed to "play" with as a youth was I believe a Flobert rifle. It is an octagonal barrel breech loader and the spur on the hammer is missing along with the rear sight. There is a dovetail in the barrel but no sight. Under the barrel it is marked "51". On the left side of the barrel there is a sideways * over a Z and then to the rear of that there is a circle with the letters E over an L and a G. Under them is a small mark that is difficult to see but almost looks like a tiny & but could also be a feather.

It doesn't say Flobert on it anywhere but a friend identified it for me many years ago. It is a small bore and I would guess around .22 caliber.

model3sw · #4 05-23-2017, 10:18 AM

I presume this is OK to post with the Lee and administrators of the Forum as these are in Europe, and basically not buyable by 99% of us in the USA.

Thanks to Danalex from Strasbourg, France,

Hi,
Some valuable examples in France

Pistolets Flobert - Pistolets à percussion (3925851)

Pistolet de salon flobert

Daniel
__________________
Daniel
SWCA#2471

model3sw · #5 05-23-2017, 10:50 AM

Close up of barrel address:

Patbar · #6 05-23-2017, 12:06 PM

Sal, looking at your picture, I can see that the name on the Barrel is 'Brun' and not Brurr, and Brun is actually a French name. However, I didn't find anything on him on the net (at least in Paris. I found a gunsmith going by this name but he was in Saint-Etienne, a city which counted a great number of gunsmiths and armories starting in the 17th century).

Besides that, I'd like to specify that the 1855 Rollin White patent about the bored through cylinder concerned only the United States. In France, Eugene Lefaucheux had before that, on April 15, 1854 a patent granted for his pinfire revolver which already had a bored through cylinder.

Jim Watson · #7 05-23-2017, 12:59 PM

There is a short article on Mssr Flobert in the 1974 Gun Digest.
Unfortunately it does not much discuss the makers of the literal tons of Flobert designs. It says he made a lot himself and contracted out many more to shops in France and Belgium. No mention of unlicensed copies or post-patent production.

I remember seeing rusty Flobert rifles and 9mm shotguns stacked up like cordwood in stores here. I assume the rulers of the EU cleaned out a lot of attics and small shooting clubs and sent their old smallbores to gullible Americans.

Flobert pistols are quite scarce around here, though.

There were so many Floberts made that the name became generic and about any inexpensive .22, no matter the design, was known as a "flobert", just as about any automatic pistol might be called a "Browning."

JSR III · #8 05-23-2017, 02:56 PM

There are examples available on several of the popular gun sites. The typical asking price seems to be in the $700 to $900 range. Not sure but I thought that I saw a Remington connection mentioned during some of my internet sleuthing. Perhaps they imported some of these guns back in the mid 1800 to early 1900's.

Mine is a neat little gun and now that I have a source for restoration welding, I may try to have the hammer repaired.

model3sw · #9 05-23-2017, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patbar

Sal, looking at your picture, I can see that the name on the Barrel is 'Brun' and not Brurr, and Brun is actually a French name. However, I didn't find anything on him on the net (at least in Paris. I found a gunsmith going by this name but he was in Saint-Etienne, a city which counted a great number of gunsmiths and armories starting in the 17th century).

Besides that, I'd like to specify that the 1855 Rollin White patent about the bored through cylinder concerned only the United States. In France, Eugene Lefaucheux had before that, on April 15, 1854 a patent granted for his pinfire revolver which already had a bored through cylinder.

I can believe Lefaucheux invented the bored through cylinder but likely did not patent it in the U.S. For S&W to pay Flobert for use of the patent it is likely Flobert also patented in the USA.

Nikola Tesla invented dozens of magnificent inventions years before the noted inventors took credit for his inventions.

I don't believe Sam Colt invented the Revolver, either.

model3sw · #10 06-14-2019, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

There are examples available on several of the popular gun sites. The typical asking price seems to be in the $700 to $900 range. Not sure but I thought that I saw a Remington connection mentioned during some of my internet sleuthing. Perhaps they imported some of these guns back in the mid 1800 to early 1900's.

Mine is a neat little gun and now that I have a source for restoration welding, I may try to have the hammer repaired.

Jim, anything further on your progress here ? Sal

danalex · #11 06-14-2019, 01:46 PM

Nice pair in France but difficult to sell

COFFRET A UN PISTOLET DE TIR EN CALIBRE 5,5. SECOND EMPIRE. FRANCE. - Pistolets à percussion (5656299)

BMur · #12 06-14-2019, 04:24 PM

The only single shot pistols of this type that I have seen sell for a decent amount of money are always cased in a pair and listed as dueling pistols. Whether accurate or not doesn’t seem to matter. The double Case is what is selling. Outside a double case is a very hard sell in today’s market. Just an observation.
The Volcanics( I have a 41 cal) in my opinion should only be sold at a large auction house to achieve maximum value.