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S&W Antiques S&W Lever Action Pistols, Tip-Up Revolvers, ALL Top-Break Revolvers, and ALL Single Shots


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Old 06-30-2017, 10:41 AM
red9 red9 is offline
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Default Unusual 1891 Singleshots

While reading the March, 1960 issue of Gun Report, I came across the article "S&W Single Shot Pistols" by Carl Kountz. A detailed, three page illustrated article, but nothing new until he mentioned "two interesting experimental pistols." The first, serial number 15428, is caliber 38-44 with a steel weight bar under the barrel and stocks of the later pattern but in ivory. The second, serial number 00 (yes, Don?), is caliber 320 revolving rifle with the same stocks and what is described as a "weight sleeve."`
I found no other reference to these pistols anywhere else. SCSW mentions barrels in these calibers. Are the locations of these two known? What permissions are necessary to post this article?

Bob
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by red9 View Post
While reading the March, 1960 issue of Gun Report, I came across the article "S&W Single Shot Pistols" by Carl Kountz. A detailed, three page illustrated article, but nothing new until he mentioned "two interesting experimental pistols." The first, serial number 15428, is caliber 38-44 with a steel weight bar under the barrel and stocks of the later pattern but in ivory. The second, serial number 00 (yes, Don?), is caliber 320 revolving rifle with the same stocks and what is described as a "weight sleeve."`
I found no other reference to these pistols anywhere else. SCSW mentions barrels in these calibers. Are the locations of these two known? What permissions are necessary to post this article?

Bob
Bob
That is a great article. I may know where the .320 SS is located. I can't confirm it but I've been trying to see it for years.
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:17 PM
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Interesting calibers. That might explain why I picked up a 38 SS barrel from Proppert's years ago, only to find it was chambered in 38-44 Target. I located enough information from a learned member here to load the round properly and it shoots very well indeed.
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:08 PM
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Very well indeed---sure enough!!

Ralph Tremaine
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:12 PM
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Scarcest 1891 I have is a 6" 1891, 1st model, in .38 S&W. That one is in excellent condition. Found that only 8 months ago (after 30 years of looking).
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:22 PM
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Wow ! A Single shot in .38-44 ! Talk about a grail gun ! Congratulations !

Larry
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Old 06-30-2017, 06:30 PM
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Wow ! A Single shot in .38-44 ! Talk about a grail gun ! Congratulations !

Larry
I wish it was a matching SS, but the barrel is unmarked, never serial numbered.
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Old 06-30-2017, 07:57 PM
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One of the two that I have is the 1891 in .32.......
Only a couple of hundred made....somewhere in its life, it got a coat of nickel....

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Old 07-05-2017, 10:21 AM
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Default what Koutnz wrote about these two unusual single shots

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Originally Posted by red9 View Post
While reading the March, 1960 issue of Gun Report, I came across the article "S&W Single Shot Pistols" by Carl Kountz. A detailed, three page illustrated article, but nothing new until he mentioned "two interesting experimental pistols." The first, serial number 15428, is caliber 38-44 with a steel weight bar under the barrel and stocks of the later pattern but in ivory. The second, serial number 00 (yes, Don?), is caliber 320 revolving rifle with the same stocks and what is described as a "weight sleeve."` I found no other reference to these pistols anywhere else. SCSW mentions barrels in these calibers. Are the locations of these two known? What permissions are necessary to post this article? Bob
When I revised the SCSW chapter on single shot pistols, for the 4th Edition, I added a brief reference to single shot barrels chambered for the 38-44 and .320 Revolving Rifle cartridges, but that reference was based solely on this article by Carl Kountz. I have seen no other references to S&W single-shots chambered for these cartridges.

What follows is what Mr. Kountz wrote about the two pistols under discussion:

Two interesting experimental pistols were produced by Smith and Wesson during the early years of the target pistol work. The first of these (Plate 7) is serial number 15428. The barrel is chambered to take a 38-44 revolver cartridge. Immediately noticable are the over-sized ivory grips, the special over-sized sights, and an early attempt at balancing the pistol through addition of a steel bar to the underside of the barrel. The action is a standard 1891 Model single action, though the trigger has deepened knurling.
The second of (Plate 8) these non-production arms is serial number 00. In this variation the barrel is chambered for a caliber 320 Revolving Rifle cartridge. Again the special grips and sights are outstanding, while the balancing material, this time, consists of a milled sleeve which is fitted the full length of the barrel, from muzzle to chamber. This weapon is also found in the 1891 Model single action frame. The difference in cartridges used in these two arms would indicate some concern with ball and load variation, and not merely on the balance of the piece alone.


With respect to #00, the unconventional serial number would support the assumption that the pistol was some sort of factory prototype, I suppose. Mr. Kountz did not say why he believed pistol #15428 was also factory-produced in its unusual configuration, as opposed to being a post-factory modification.

The article contains low-def, black-and-white profile photos of the two pistols (among others). I do not see, in those photos, all of the details that Mr. Koutnz wrote about, but I suppose that he had some opportunity to examine the guns directly.

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Old 07-05-2017, 12:14 PM
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With respect to #00, the unconventional serial number would support the assumption that the pistol was some sort of factory prototype, I suppose. Mr. Kountz did not say why he believed pistol #15428 was also factory-produced in its unusual configuration, as opposed to being a post-factory modification.

Douglas
Just to clear up the serial number 00. They were approximately 50 Smith & Wesson's with 0 for the serial number. They supposedly were gift guns from the Wesson family. I have 5 guns all having 0 for the serial number, one has 5 0"s for the number. I don't believe 00 in the article was a prototype.
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Old 07-05-2017, 01:07 PM
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Just to clear up the serial number 00. They were approximately 50 Smith & Wesson's with 0 for the serial number. They supposedly were gift guns from the Wesson family. I have 5 guns all having 0 for the serial number, one has 5 0"s for the number. I don't believe 00 in the article was a prototype.
No doubt you're right -- "prototype" is not the word I should have used. I only meant that the "00" pistol was presumably produced at the factory in the unusual chambering, not a post-factory modification. So, not a "prototype" properly so called -- but for what purpose do you believe that a single pistol was made in the .320 Revolving Rifle chambering?

I know nothing about the author of the article, Carl Kountz. The article does contain some errors -- for example, with respect to the 3rd (Perfected) Model, he wrote that the Olympic chamber was produced only "in limited quantity during 1910" and "never went into production," when in fact Olympic-chambered barrels were available after SN 9548, and are commonly found on examples over SN 10,000.
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Old 07-05-2017, 04:34 PM
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Is the .320 RR cartridge the same as .32-44 Target ? I've never seen one of the former.

Larry
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Old 07-05-2017, 05:32 PM
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Is the .320 RR cartridge the same as .32-44 Target ? I've never seen one of the former.

Larry
.320 RR is a longer casing than the .32-44.
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Old 08-03-2017, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red9 View Post
While reading the March, 1960 issue of Gun Report, I came across the article "S&W Single Shot Pistols" by Carl Kountz. A detailed, three page illustrated article, but nothing new until he mentioned "two interesting experimental pistols." The first, serial number 15428, is caliber 38-44 with a steel weight bar under the barrel and stocks of the later pattern but in ivory. The second, serial number 00 (yes, Don?), is caliber 320 revolving rifle with the same stocks and what is described as a "weight sleeve."`
I found no other reference to these pistols anywhere else. SCSW mentions barrels in these calibers. Are the locations of these two known? What permissions are necessary to post this article?

Bob
At least that is ONE that Don doesn't have (For Pete's sake, he has almost all the rest) ! Congrats.
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