Looked for a few yrs. for a 2nd model S&W single shot that I could afford, found this online & received today. Nickle plated with all numbers matching, 8 inch barrel has the single line address, good rifling, & yes it is centered. I have not attempted any cleanup as not sure since is nickel finish, one question I have is why the latch is blued. Will have to send for a letter on this one.

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Not familiar with this model but do know of many S&W's with a mixture of nickle and blue parts.

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James Redfield
LM #497

Nickle guns with target sights "always" had blue sights (front and rear)---up until they didn't------and I don't remember when that was----only that I've seen such on newer guns---after 1960 thereabouts. So much for that!

What is more interesting is the single line address. We have been told that 6 & 8" 2nd Models always have (leftover) 1st Model barrels----with the Model of '91 address. I recently acquired a gun I was quite certain I was going to die without-----a 6" 2nd Model. It too has a one line address. It too is an all numbers matching. I, of course, set out to figure out why the one line address----'cause my 8" 2nd has a 1st barrel. Here's why----maybe (unless it's something simple like the regular die was broken that day): They ran out of 6" 1st Model barrels. The fact this 6" has a fairly high number (3327) lends some credence to such.

So------what's the number of your 8" 2nd with a one line address? Mine with a the 1st address is the Devil's gun----3666. If yours is higher, then they ran out of 8" 1st's too. If it isn't, then it's back to the drawing board.

Finally, I hope yours letters properly. Mine doesn't. They don't know what the barrel length is.(!!) So I have yet another letter to add to my collection of letters I wish I didn't have. This is #3. #1 is my 8" .32 caliber 1st Model SS letters as a 10" .22. #2 is they don't know what the caliber is on my NM #3 Target (#3914) chambered for "38 WINCHESTER CTG". They do know it "appears to be a special order for a single unit", so all is not completely lost.



Ralph Tremaine

Serial #3032, would the difference be nickel barrels may have run out before 6 inch blued maybe? Does anyone know about how many 2nd models were nickel plated, as well as estimate of how many had 8 inch barrels? I have sent for a factory letter with photos of pistol & barrel address, hopefully will receive letter that matches pistol.

Both nickle finish and barrels less than 10" are in the minority. Without really knowing the first thing about it (other than what I've read), the shorter barrels are in the DISTINCT minority.

More often than not the letter will respond to one degree or another to such questions (nickel finish/short barrels) if you ask. My observation over the years says 10" were the best sellers (for the sight radius), 8" next (for the feel/balance), and God only knows why they made the 6". I've seen exactly five 6" versions in 40 years of looking. Three of them were NOT FOR SALE------Don't even think about asking!!! One of them was junk, and the other one is on my shelf. My next (and last) grail gun is an 8" 3rd. I've NEVER seen a legitimate example of one of those!

Ralph Tremaine

This 2nd model I have here also has a single line address on the 8" barrel. All numbers match and the factory letter states it was shipped in 1909 with the 8" barrel. Serial number is 3457.

I found a single shot with an 8" barrel a few years ago, but it is a 3rd Mod action with a 2nd Mod barrel.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

And it's a 2nd Model barrel by virtue of its serial number-----yes?

I ask because all the barrels are the same (albeit the 3rd barrels are subject to more machining---flatten/shorten the lug).

Ralph Tremaine

Roy told me when I emailed him the numbers. There is a difference in the rear sights. The 2nd has the earlier "loosen the screws and slide the sight over" and the 3hird has the adjustment screws. See the 2nd in the picture.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Mine is 3587, matching and lettered as shipping to C.L. Flannigan on Feb 15, 1910 with an 8" barrel, blue and a single line address (Centered and no "Model of '91")

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

I understand that aspect, but the sights don't make the barrel-------the latch/sights are completely interchangeable between all the top break SS's. The latch portion of the assembly must be fit to the frame, but aside from that----completely interchangeable. I was trying to determine why you've identified the barrel as that of a 2nd Model.

This is what's running around in my head: An 8" SS barrel with a number below the last of the 2nd Models (4617 thereabouts) could be either a 1st or 2nd. Only a letter on the barrel number will answer that question. We'd expect a short 1st/2nd to carry the Model of '91 barrel address (Never mind we've just seen/heard of what are clearly (short) 2nds with one line addresses.). Here we have an 8" barrel (with a one line address) on a 3rd frame. Some (perhaps just early) 3rd's also have one line addresses----my 6" 3rd (4807) has a one line address. You've identified the barrel as that from a 2nd Model. I presume this is a bona fide "frankengun" by virtue of a mismatched serial number between frame and barrel---or an unnumbered barrel. (Yes? Which is it? What's the barrel number (if any)?) And while we're at it, what's the latch number? In order for a (an original) 1st/2nd barrel to fit/function on a 3rd frame the barrel lug must be cut flat (and shortened). As an aside, I believe the fact the factory chose to cut the 3rd barrels flat----with a chamfer on the perimeter and an oval dish in the center has to do with weight (weight distribution/balance)---same goes for the grooves on the sides of the 2nd/3rd frames---a discussion for another day. Yours is cut flat. Whether it's cut "flat flat" or "fancy flat" is another question---the answer to which will perhaps serve to confuse the issue further.

Bottom Line: You say your barrel is a 2nd. Why----prove it, as they say---never mind what sight it has on it---I have a 1st barrel with 3rd sights on it--and cut for a 3rd frame to boot. And while the barrel address is clearly that of a 1st, the fact it's .38 caliber leaves no doubt!!

Ralph Tremaine

Does anyone know how long it takes to get the factory letter back currently? When the moratorium ended so they could catch up a while back, I got it back in 2 wks.

OK Ralph,
You always like a mystery....
I took a more detailed look at the 2nd Model I mentioned in my earlier post and it is as follows:

Lettered as a 8" 2nd Model shipped in 1910 to C.L. Flannigan, “No address listed”

Frame: Serial 3587 on front strap. No hand slot or cylinder stop cut. Grooved cuts in side of frame. Small logo on right side. No sign of a number on grip panels.

Barrel: 8 inch. Single line address (centered), “22 Long Rifle Ctg: on left side. Barrel latch and rear of extractor plate are numbered to the frame. No discernable number between the topstrap ears. (Although I may have to remove the latch and give the ears a good scrubbing….) There is a number “294” (with the “4” stamped sideways) located on the bottom of the barrel lug just behind the hinge. (See picture.) I have no idea about this.

Sights: Patridge front and square notch rear. The front sight has obviously been changed out (several times, as there are three pinholes through the rib.) The rear leaf is mounted in a 3rd Model(?) mount with the side-ways adjusting screws. I have a theory on these sights that I will mention after I finish with the following research on the original owner…..

C.L. Flannigan: He is mentioned in Ed McGivern’s “Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting” on page 37 and picture on page 67. McGivern calls him “One of the foremost all-around exhibition and competitive shooters known to the game, and who has been performing before the public for more than 25 years.”
He apparently performed in many of the exhibitions that included McGivern, the Topperweins and other “fancy shooters” of the day.
This book was written sometime in the 1930’s so C.L. was active in 1910 and further research has tracked him to a small town in the Bitterroot valley of Montana and later to Great Falls Montana.
(The road through the Bitterroot continues down into Idaho and passes through Salmon ID where Elmer Keith, another exhibition shooter lived.) There seemed to be quite a nest of shooters come out of this valley….

I picked the gun up a number of years ago in a pawn shop in Colville WA, so it hadn’t wandered too far from home.

My theory about the sights not being original, I believe that it is very possible that Flannigan may have changed them out to the “new fangled” Patridge sights at some time……. Who knows???

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Ralph:
My question to Roy and his answer, with #'s


Re: Ship date please, Single Shot Third Model
Posted by: "Roy Jinks"
Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:13 pm (PST)
Dick, .22 Single Shot Third Model serial number 8694 was shipped July, 1917, the barrel serial number 3844 is from a pistol shipped February 1911. Who know if it was added. Roy G. Jinks, Historian, Smith & Wesson
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: [swcaforum] Ship date please, Single Shot Third Model

Roy:
Appreciate a ship date for a 3rd Model single Shot. S/N 8694. It has
a 8" barrel, but it does not number to the gun, it is S/N 3844.
Condition appears excellant, but I am sure it is a reblue, and the
side plate does not appear to be original. The only markings on the
gun (other than the S/N's) is 22 Long Rifle Ctg on the left side of
the barrel, and "Smith & Wesson, Springfield Mass, USA", on the top
rib. Bore is pristeen. Stocks (2 screw walnut medallion target's) are
excellant, just a couple of very slight dings on the butt.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Dean,

Very interesting pistol. I wonder if C.L. Flannigan stamped some sort of number system to all his guns? Who knows.

You mentioned it didn't move far from its home, since you bought it in Colville. The one I have above shipped in 1909 to Kimball Gun Shop in Tacoma, WA and I bought it many years ago at a gun shop in Bellevue, WA, so it hasn't moved too far from home either.

It's not so much that I love a mystery, it's just that they gnaw away at me. I hate questions I can't answer---and when I have to make up my own answers, they gnaw away at me too. I'm very hard to please!!

So---ALL the questions on H Richard's gun have been answered---and it is what it is.

To Dean's Flannigan pistol: My knee-jerk reaction to the 294 stamp is it may have been kept at/perhaps owned by a shooting club at some time, and that's their mark. The real mystery there is where in the world did they come up with a backwards number punch? It ain't like you can turn them around----upside down (?), yes----backwards (?), no.

The sights are easy---to my mind at least. The 3rd Model rear sight (that on the gun) is the very first truly adjustable sight S&W made----and ANY serious shooter would have snatched up one of those sights within seconds of learning of their existence!! The earlier sight was adjustable for elevation----and movable for windage---and I can pretty much guarandamntee NOBODY got it moved correctly on the first try.

And the very clear benefit of this sight was not lost on the factory folks. I have a 1st Model SS barrel---.38 caliber---no number (from the Parts Department). It has been modified as follows: The sights have been changed from 1st to 3rd. The barrel lug has been cut to allow its use on a 3rd Model frame----and it was cut EXACTLY the same as those on a 3rd Model----what I call "fancy flat". It was this "fancy flat" cut which became the mystery. MY solution to this mystery was it was done by the factory. Then I tried to find someone who agreed with me. I hit the jackpot!! The story goes like this: At a point in time, S&W modified some or all of the 1st/2nd SS barrels in inventory such that they would fit any of their top-break SS frames. I decided they milled the lug "fancy flat" because that's the way they did it. (I have since come up with (and proved to my satisfaction) the reason that's the way they did it----another story for another time.) That story made sense----it's a good marketing move. Then I asked THE MAN about it. His (instant) response: "Never happened!"

Okay---I wonder why anybody (other than the factory) would cut the "fancy flat" when just plain flat works fine? I didn't come up with any answers for that one. What I did come up with was some other folks who had SS barrels just like mine------latest sights---"fancy flat" barrel lugs.

Last mystery: Who am I to believe----THE MAN---or my lying eyes?

Ralph Tremaine

Looks to me more like the numbers were struck with individual punches and the "4" was rotated 90 deg. clockwise.

So, bottom line...If my barrel is a factory unnumberd one what I have is a 2nd Model Transitional w/altered sights??

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

AH!!------90 degrees clockwise-----Got it!! That's where that old saying came from---"If at first you don't succeed------------look again---and PAY ATTENTION!!

I don't know what you mean by "Transitional". If your barrel is unnumbered, it came from the Parts Department-----period. IF your barrel is unnumbered AND has the "fancy flat" cut on the bottom of the lug, it COULD be one like my .38 barrel---OR it could be a plain, everyday 3rd Model barrel. (All the top-break SS barrels are the same----started out the same. They cut the bottom of the lug so it would fit the frame configuration they chose for the 3rd Model.) The altered sights (in and of themselves) don't take us anywhere. The latch/sight can be changed for any other in a manner of a few minutes---remove one screw, withdraw latch/sight, replace latch/sight, put the screw back in---done.

That said, I BELIEVE (but do not KNOW) the latch is/must be/usually must be fit to the frame. I believe this because the (original) latch is numbered (and if it wasn't fit to its frame, there would be no need to number it). I believe it also because I tried to put one of my (spare/extra/accessory) barrels on one of my other guns. It went right on---no problem; but it wouldn't close/latch---wouldn't go over the frame horns. I SUSPECT (but do not know) fitting a latch to the frame horns is a matter of filing/stoning the lower portion of the (female) portions of the latch recesses such that they will go over the top portion of the frame horns. I haven't messed with that---and have no intention of doing so. Some of our more adventuresome folks who dabble with "project guns" can very likely speak to that---with great expertise.

Ralph Tremaine

I'm not quite clear on just the difference between a flat and a fancy flat is. What-so-ever, my lug is nicely rounded on the bottom.
I'm not sure where I came up with there being "Transitional" 2nd Models. I will have to dig out my research and see if I can find the reference.

As to having to hand fit the barrel latch thereby requiring it be serialized makes sense. Same thing with the extractor??

My question would be if they pulled a unnumbered barrel out of the parts bin, hand fitted the latch to the frame and numbered it so, wouldn't it make sense to also number the barrel as the latch connects the two.
Then we have the question of why is the extractor numbered to the frame when it has nothing to do with the frame??

See? Little things gnaw at me too......

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Here is a photo of my 3rd model 10 inch .22 barrel [short chamber Olympic barrel] fancy milled lug; on top of a 1st model of 91 no serial numbers 32 S&W 10 inch barrel with the round lug milled flat. I just happen to have them switched right now to shoot the 32's I reload. The 32 barrel actually locks up perfect, while the original is just slightly loose. The 32 S&W is one I bought by itself in an auction, I have seen a few others with the somewhat coarse milled flat lug, but do not know if factory or done by gunsmith or maybe Bubba.

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A nicely rounded barrel lug fits a 1st/2nd---in view of the fact it's nicely rounded on the same radius as the cylinder (+/-) on the (parent) revolver. A "fancy flat" barrel lug (as on the 3rd) will also fit a 1st/2nd----but nicely rounded will not fit a 3rd frame (until/unless it's cut flat---plain or fancy---and shortened a bit). It won't fit a 3rd because they chose to make the frame floor flat. (I have a theory about why that choice was made too. If you sit and stare at these things long enough, you start asking questions---and the books don't have any answers.)

The only "transitional" 2nd Models I know of are not transitional. They're simply guns put together with leftover parts. The typical (so called) transitional 2nd Models are 2nd's built on 1st frames (two pins). And that too can get puzzling, but only if you think about it too much. There are IDENTICAL "transitional" models of this type (two pins) which letter as either 1st's or 2nd's depending ONLY upon the serial number---a number in the 2nd serial range letters as a 2nd. An EXACT SAME gun with a number outside the 2nd range letters as a 1st.

As a matter of perhaps some interest, one of the first 3rd Models doesn't have a frame with a flat floor, and DOES have a nicely rounded barrel lug. It lives at Terry Wagner's house. At first sight, it looks for all the world like someone just grabbed some pieces and made up a single shot----just for grins (a Perfected revolver frame, and a 1st/2nd barrel). But then they slapped a serial number on it---and sold it. The serial number is in the 2nd Model serial range (38 something something as I recall). And then Terry sent off for a letter. I don't know what he expected to get back, but it probably wasn't that he had a 3rd Model SS. That's what he got---a sure enough 3rd Model SS---never mind it doesn't look like any you've ever seen (except it's double action).

And they did number barrels. If/when you have an unnumbered barrel, it's a replacement of the original. If your unnumbered barrel has a numbered extractor, it's because it was removed from its numbered barrel, and replaced in the unnumbered barrel. Do I know this for a fact? No. What else makes any sense---and why?

Any/all parts that were numbered were such because they were finished in batches---X number of frames, X number of barrels, X number of you name it---all finished at once. Then they went to get put back together. It was handy to know which this went with which that.

And the extractor was numbered to the frame because its barrel was too. I reckon they could have come up with an additional, separate number to get barrels and extractors back together, but they might have thought better of it.

Ralph Tremaine

So, the story might be that Flannigan ordered a 8 inch and when the shipping department went to the vault there were no 8 inchers already made up. They then went to the parts bin and pulled out an unnumbered 8 inch barrel, yanked the parts off of a 10 incher, replaced the latch, extractor and shipped it off.??

I can live with that......

(Would any of the digitized records show this or would it even show up in the day books?)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Well, question answered....
I finally broke down and removed the latch and put a decent light between the "ears" of the barrel.

Guess what??

There IS a matching serial number!!! (I keep forgetting just how small these numbers can be...)


(So disregard my previous post....)

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Well, I normally (or at least sometimes) do what I'm told; but this time---no go. I'm not going to ignore this post---because it is more than entirely possible---and pretty much EXACTLY the story on one of my guns.

I have a Model of '91 revolver---6" target----with an unnumbered latch/sight. I was properly terrified that it was a "put together" gun---but it was the only Model of '91 target I'd seen/heard of at the time; and I bought it. Then I sweated out waiting for the letter.

The gun letters as shipped as a target. Roy opines the unnumbered latch came to be thus: They received an order for a 6" target. They had none. Given the options of refusing the order or making a gun, they made a gun. They made it by taking a standard 6" from stock and changing the sights/grips. Such work would have been done by the Service Department. They work on one gun at a time---and there was no batch finishing/refinishing involved. Accordingly, there was no need to number anything--and they didn't.

Case closed.

Ralph Tremaine

And as to whether any records of this sort of thing would show up, I doubt it--but it never hurts to ask.