S&W Model 3 First Edition .44 S&W american

Jedirick · #1 08-26-2017, 08:58 AM

Hi,
I need some help properly identifying my Model 3 that I acquired recently. Like the title says, I know the Model and edition, but I'd like to narrow down where it went after it was shippe to the armory and possibly what Unit it saw use in. I have a letter from Roy Jinks and that's about it.
If there any info that could be provided I'd be very thankful.
I added as many pictures as allowed, if more needed I'll add another post.
Maybe someone could assist me in setting a bracket for the price range.

Wiregrassguy · #2 08-26-2017, 09:09 AM

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! Looking at the Standard Catalog of S&W, 4th Ed. page 105, it appears that your gun was one of 1000 US Army order, 800 blue and 200 nickel in the SN range of 125 to 2199. It must be validated against a list of known SN's in Parson's S&W Revolvers or the reprint of Charles Pate's article in the 20th Anniversary of the S&WCA Journal. Double civilian model values.

Someone who has those references should be along shortly. IMO, the condition is Fair to Good. SCSW says $1250 to $2500.

opoefc · #3 08-26-2017, 02:24 PM

Check the Springfield Research Service's books listing the Army units that had American models in their inventories. When an Army unit changes command the incoming CO signs off on all small arms in the unit's possession, by model & serial number. Those inventories are in the National Archives. Also see Charlie Pate's book on the American model. From your photos, I would estimate the value around $2000, give or take a couple hundred, assuming it's mechanically OK and all the assembly codes & serial numbers match. Ed.

Jedirick · #4 08-26-2017, 04:13 PM

Thank you very much so far!

glowe · #5 08-27-2017, 09:02 AM

Just a quick note on model name. These guns normally called Model 3, 1st Model, Single Action revolvers, or simply First Model American. First name is more appropriate since this model was available in both 44 American (44-100) or 44 Rimfire (Henry) calibers. Very unusual to run across a US Army order example.

S&WsRsweet · #6 08-27-2017, 09:13 AM

My grail gun will be anything I can post on here and get the description of " very unusual" from any of the SWCA membership .

model3sw · #7 08-28-2017, 08:34 PM

I truly cannot evaluate without a touch and a feel. Yes, I am an antique S&W gun toucher (don't tell anyone). Some super good, excellently focused and lighted close up photos could help. Close up of all stamps, etc. Barrel scroll (at a glance) looks strong ... "and that's all I got to say about that" (Forrest Gump style).

Do the SN on the reverse side of the stocks match the SN of the gun. Do all the assembly marks (frame, barrel, latch and cylinder) match ? Assembly marks on this model are usually one letter followed by one number. e.g. X1 etc. On some later models either position might be a " . " (dot or period) or a 3 spaced mark but not in the US Cavalry range serial numbers.

I've seen this gun before I just cannot recall where at this time. Crystal ball is telling me ... perhaps on GB for a long time, previously sold by RIA, a few years back. You should report it's finding to Col. Charles Pate, USAF (ret). Col. Pate is "the" foremost living authority on these. If you don't have, then GET, his Smith & Wesson AMERICAN book. Col Pate can tell you the exact history of the serial number and what he knows. He's been tracking these US serial numbers for near 60 years. I've been reporting these SNs to Col.Pate for about 20+ years.

Ed Cornett (opoefc) has been reporting these numbers for the past 90 years. Whatever Ed says, take it as a "fact". He was around when these were almost new.

model3sw · #8 08-28-2017, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Just a quick note on model name. These guns normally called Model 3, 1st Model, Single Action revolvers, or simply First Model American. First name is more appropriate since this model was available in both 44 American (44-100) or 44 Rimfire (Henry) calibers. Very unusual to run across a US Army order example.

Gary, is .44 American 44-100 ? I just purchased part of Hartley and Graham ARMY / NAVY catalog from May 1889 showing an engraving of a New Model 3 available in 44-100 caliber "for Army, Navy or Pocket" use. By that time the .44 was predominantly .44 S&W Russian.

model3sw · #9 08-28-2017, 09:20 PM

repost from old / lost thread.

Either a .32-44 or .38-44 Target converted to .22 LR. with an homage to George Raft (as Rinaldo in the original "Scarface")

glowe · #10 08-29-2017, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

Gary, is .44 American 44-100 ? I just purchased part of Hartley and Graham ARMY / NAVY catalog from May 1889 showing an engraving of a New Model 3 available in 44-100 caliber "for Army, Navy or Pocket" use. By that time the .44 was predominantly .44 S&W Russian.

The "100" in this case did not mean powder charge, but rather signifying 44 "one-hundredth" inch measurement. I have seen references to both the American and the Russian cartridges in different eras as 44-100. This was a common way to identify cartridges in the early days of self-contained ammunition. I have also seen ammo boxes in 44 Henry, 44 Remington & Colt listed as 44-100. In the US Cartridge Catalog from 1881, you will find cartridges listed only by a single number. There were five different center-fire calibers listed simply as No. 44, with a detailed list of all revolvers that each listing fits. I do not know when the gun manufacturers and ammo companies got together to standardize caliber names, but apparently no earlier than the mid-1880s??

opoefc · #11 08-29-2017, 01:50 PM

Trivia, Many moons ago, I was doing some research at Hartford on early Colt SAAs and found an entry in the Colt records of a shipment to England of some Colts in caliber .42 Smith & Wesson. ???? Digging further I discovered the caliber was actually .44 American but since the land diameter of the barrel rifling was .42/100th, Colt called the caliber .42 S&W. Go figure! Ed. ( I'm recalling this off the top of my head, if you want more details, I wrote an article for an early S&WCA Journal about the ".42 S&W" that gives the full story)

sspierce8 · #12 01-14-2018, 12:04 PM

I also have one of the 800 blued ones. Supposedly issued to my great great great grandfather, but have not been able to confirm. Would love to learn more.

model3sw · #13 01-14-2018, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sspierce8

I also have one of the 800 blued ones. Supposedly issued to my great great great grandfather, but have not been able to confirm. Would love to learn more.

Would love to see some photos of it. Is it still in nice shape ?

jhnttrpp · #14 01-14-2018, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

I truly cannot evaluate without a touch and a feel. Yes, I am an antique S&W gun toucher (don't tell anyone). Some super good, excellently focused and lighted close up photos could help. Close up of all stamps, etc. Barrel scroll (at a glance) looks strong ...
"and that's all I got to say about that" (Forrest Gump style).

Do the SN on the reverse side of the stocks match the SN of the gun. Do all the assembly marks (frame, barrel, latch and cylinder) match ? Assembly marks on this model are usually one letter followed by one number. e.g. X1 etc. On some later models either position might be a " . " (dot or period) or a 3 spaced mark but not in the US Cavalry range serial numbers.

I've seen this gun before I just cannot recall where at this time. Crystal ball is telling me ... perhaps on GB for a long time, previously sold by RIA, a few years back. You should report it's finding to Col. Charles Pate, USAF (ret). Col. Pate is "the" foremost living authority on these. If you don't have, then GET, his Smith & Wesson AMERICAN book. Col Pate can tell you the exact history of the serial number and what he knows. He's been tracking these US serial numbers for near 60 years. I've been reporting these SNs to Col.Pate for 30+ years.

Ed Cornett (opoefc) has been reporting these numbers for the past 90 years. Whatever Ed says, take it as a "fact". He was around when these were almost new.

Sal, I can tell you want to touch this one. If only for a moment

model3sw · #15 01-15-2018, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhnttrpp

Sal, I can tell you want to touch this one. If only for a moment

LOL, I've been waiting 20 years for Charlie to let go of a nice U.S. .... or ... (at least) have him "bless" one that I found on my own.

I've had 2 "soiled" US Cavalry models in my life. One a terrible sand out and refinish, another mixed parts ... all US parts, but, a mix and match.

I've had about 10 more in my hands at one time or another, still unimpressed with what I've seen except ONE, that was NOT for sale. Likely the nicest I've ever seen but it, too, had a story. All the marks were on point and excellent but it would not letter as a U.S. Cavalry. Don't you hate when that happens ?

Sure I'd like to hold a real "worthy" U.S. American ... even if she's a little old and tired.

I used to joke my buddies ... I'd tell them my best friend is loyal, faithful, minds her own business, never talks back and is there whenever I need her. She kinda' dumb because she only knows one word, but she can say it loud and clear ... five times ! (referring to my Chief's Special) .

JSR III · #16 01-16-2018, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Ed Cornett (opoefc) has been reporting these numbers for the past 90 years. Whatever Ed says, take it as a "fact". He was around when these were almost new.

He was around looooong before they were built.....

PS: OP, Welcome to the forum..

DesmoEd · #17 01-16-2018, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

LOL, I've been waiting 20 years for Charlie to let go of a nice U.S. .... or ... (at least) have him "bless" one that I found on my own.

I've had 2 "soiled" US Cavalry models in my life. One a terrible sand out and refinish, another mixed parts ... all US parts, but, a mix and match.

I've had about 10 more in my hands at one time or another, still unimpressed with what I've seen except ONE, that was NOT for sale. Likely the nicest I've ever seen but it, too, had a story. All the marks were on point and excellent but it would not letter as a U.S. Cavalry. Don't you hate when that happens ?

Sure I'd like to hold a real "worthy" U.S. American ... even if she's a little old and tired.

I used to joke my buddies ... I'd tell them my best friend is loyal, faithful, minds her own business, never talks back and is there whenever I need her. She kinda' dumb because she only knows one word, but she can say it loud and clear ... five times ! (referring to my Chief's Special) .

The OP's pistol looks like a righteous closet find, from the pics I dont see anything that stands out as fake or enhanced.

I'm a little confused on value quoted, I have yet to see any US American for under $3000 unless its been buffed to death and had the barrel cut...

model3sw · #18 01-17-2018, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

The OP's pistol looks like a righteous closet find, from the pics I dont see anything that stands out as fake or enhanced.

I'm a little confused on value quoted, I have yet to see any US American for under $3000 unless its been buffed to death and had the barrel cut...

The original OP, hit and ran. He joined, posted this one thread and then was gone. I'll agree the original estimate by the first person who replied may have been hasty but I, also, replied to the OP with very valid questions that went ignored.

If you copy a few of the OP photos to enlarge you can see the gun was deeply more rust eroded in spots, e.g. black powder, mercury primers, etc. see cylinder flutes and upper top strap of barrel where in narrows toward the rear, for starters. Likely dipped in rust remover chemicals (then neutralized) and / or powder blasted and / or brushed then coated with some sort of chemical or liquid was like an old treatment called "sweet shooter" (which reminds me of Johnson & Johnson liquid floor wax). The OPs pictures show what is basically a cleaned up "brown" gun. No where near the quality a serious collector would consider but seems "nice enough" at a glance. This is how most first time buyers get lured in.

It's not as nice as the preliminary photos may appear, I think ... AND ... the OP never responded to valid questions about Serial Number and assembly marks.

Col. Charles Pate, USAF (retired) is the most knowledgeable, studied and research consult on early S&W Americans & Schofields, alive. When I'm interested in an old American or any old or odd Military issue firearm that I am suspicious of, I contact Col Pate. He saved me from purchasing a what seemed to be a "nice" (however factory refinished ... which is just fine by me) saying "The assembly numbers are SUSPICIOUS and the U.S. stamp has been "helped" ... meaning RE-Stamped or barrel replaced with a Non-US barrel then stamped U.S.) He is an amazing man and Author. If you don't have his book on S&W Model 3 Americans .. buy it ! It is a "must have". I've been reporting US Cavalry numbers to Col Pate for about 25 years (give or take), way before the advent of the internet. Anywhere you see a list of all the known Serial Numbers of the U.S. Americans, that is thanks to Col Pate who dug through the National Archives (Reminiscent of the warehouse at the end of Indiana Jones where they roll in the crated Ark of the Covenant) ... a dimly lit cloister back then. HE found the original documents of all the U.S. Serial Numbers / Gov't Order of the U.S. Americans. Everywhere you see that list printed in any publication is thanks to Col. Pate.

I am not, absolutely, sure but i think 1429 was one of the SNs I owned or one of the SN of the stocks on that mix and match I owned. I would have written Col Pate to ask what the records may show on this SN if they OP ever replied to the valid questions. Col. Pate keeps records of every time any or the U.S. Americans (and other commercial Americans) as well as Schofields, 1899s, 1917s (Colt & S&W), US 1911s, Victories, USAF AirCrewman and more. Any US Made gun for US Military service ... even an old cap and ball Colts, Remingtons and others.

There's a seller, a nice enough guy so it seems, that has a decently correct U.S. American who has been trying to sell it at a start of $8,000 for the past year or more. During this time it did not even even raise a cough. He shows (or had shown) a previous purchase by "someone" at Rock Island a few years back, listed as from the collection of Charles Duffy (a master gunsmith and restoration expert, who passed several years back). All seem to be correct but the prior sale of that exact gun at Rock Island for $8,000 .... or even one in that condition ... was a fluke or had a few people in the audience boosting the bids up to a naive buyer, I think (or it seems).

Either way seems the "now" seller is stuck in that one for the $8,000 (someone paid Rock Island) that he is attempting to recover but, it is not working.

Over the past several years, the really nice old, desirable S&W's have kept a high value while the less condition ranges have plummeted. Reason ? Likely all the old timers who collect these are dying off. When they did collect any older firearm back 20 to 70 years ago, the guns were relatively "affordable" by anyone with a decent job. NOW, those average or lesser condition guns are going cheap because of limited demand.

The BIG calibers will always hold value better than the small ones but the very scarce or rare types, have to be in one of the premium conditions. e.g. the New Model 3 Argentine, Cuba (usually show up in awfully worn conditions with mixed numbers) and Japanese contract NM3 (which are plentiful but most have mixed numbers) ... unless in upper conditions or reduced to a lesser price ... seems NO ONE is interested. The Australian Contract of 250, in nicer conditions are still very desirable as most were maintained very well.

If a seller is asking in the $10K or better for a U.S. American, it better darn well be a VERY charming U.S. Issue. It MUST be the McCoy in decent condition, with all parts exactly the way it left S&W, all original, without any 'helped' or "raised" markings (that's a word that politely means "restamped").

I'm one of the older collectors that don't mind plopping down the $$ for an oldie that I feel (only after I examine it) is all original and in upper condition percentages, however, if there is just one item that hits me "wrong" about it, I'm gone.

DesmoEd · #19 01-20-2018, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

The original OP, hit and ran. He joined, posted this one thread and then was gone. I'll agree the original estimate by the first person who replied may have been hasty but I, also, replied to the OP with very valid questions that went ignored.

If you copy a few of the OP photos to enlarge you can see the gun was deeply more rust eroded in spots, e.g. black powder, mercury primers, etc. see cylinder flutes and upper top strap of barrel where in narrows toward the rear, for starters. Likely dipped in rust remover chemicals (the neutralized) and / or powder blasted and / or brushed then coated with some sort of chemical or liquid was like an old treatment called "sweet shooter" (which reminds me of Johnson & Johnson liquid floor wax). The OPs pictures show what is basically a cleaned up "brown" gun. No where near the quality a serious collector would consider but seems "nice enough" at a glance. This is how most first time buyers get lured in.

It's not as nice as the preliminary photos may appear, I think ... AND ... the OP never responded to valid questions about Serial Number and assembly marks.

Col. Charles Pate, USAF (retired) is the most knowledgeable, studied and reasearch consult on early S&W Americans & Schofields, aliver. When I'm interested in an old American or any old or odd Military issue firearm that I am suspicious of, I contact Col Pate. He saved me from purchasing a what seemed to be a "nice" (however factory refinished ... which is just fine by me) saying "The assembly numbers are SUSPICIOUS and the U.S. stamp has been "helped" ... meaning RE-Stamped or barrel replaced with a Non-US barrel then stamped U.S.) He is an amazing man and Author. If you don't have his book on S&W Model 3 Americans .. buy it ! It is a "must have". I've been reporting US Cavalry numbers to Col Pate for about 30 years, way before the advent of the internet. Anywhere you see a list of all the known Serial Numbers of the U.S. Americans, that is thanks to Col Pate who dug through the National Archives (Reminiscent of the warehouse at the end of Indiana Jones where they roll in the crated Ark of the Covenant) ... a dimly lit cloister back then. HE found the original documents of all the U.S. Serial Numbers / Gov't Order of the U.S. Americans. Everywhere you see that list printed in any publication is thanks to Col. Pate.

I am not, absolutely, sure but i think 1429 was one of the SNs I owned or one of the SN of the stocks on that mix and match I owned. I would hae written Col Pate to ask what the records may show on this SN if they OP ever replied to the valid questions. Col. Pate keeps records of every time any or the U.S. Americans (and other commercial Americans) as well as Schofields, 1899s, 1917s (Colt & S&W), US 1911s, Victories, USAF AirCrewman and more. Any US Made gun for US Military service ... even an old cap and ball Colts, Remingtons and others.

There's a seller, a nice enough guy so it seems, that has a decently correct U.S. American who has been trying to sell it at a start of $8,000 for the past year or more. During this time it did not even even raise a cough. he shows (or had shown) a previous purchased by "someone" at Rock Island a few years back as collection of Charles Duffy (a master gunsmith and restoration expert, who passed several years back). All seem to be correct but the prior sale of that exact gun at Rock Island for $8,000 .... or even one in that condition ... was a fluke or had a few people in the audience boosting the bids up to a naive buyer, I think (or it seems).

Either way seems the "now" seller is stuck in that one for $8,000 he needs to recover but is not working.

Over the past several years, the really nice old, desirable S&W's have kept a high value while the less condition ranges have plummeted. Reason ? Likely all the old timers who collect these are dying off. When they did collect any older firearm back 20 to 70 years ago, the guns were relatively "affordable" by anyone with a decent job. NOW, those average or lesser condition guns are going cheap because of limited demand.

The BIG calibers will always hold value better than the small ones but the very scarce or rare types, have to be in one of the premium conditions. e.g. the New Model 3 Argentine, Cuba (usually show up in awfully worn conditions with mixed numbers) and Japanese contract NM3 (which are plentiful but most have mixed numbers) ... unless in upper conditions or reduced to a lesser pricec ... seems NO ONE is interested. The Australian Contract of 250, in nicer conditions are still very desirable as most were maintained very well.

If a seller is asking in the $10K or better for a U.S. American, it better darn well a very charming U.S. Issue. It MUST be the McCoy in decent condition, with all parts exactly the way it left S&W, all original, without any 'helped' or "raised" markings (that's a word that politely means "restamped").

I'm one of the older collectors that don't mind plopping down the $$ for an oldie that I feel (only after I examine it) is all original and in upper condition percentages, however, if there is just one item that hits me "wrong" about it, I'm gone.

Hey Sal,

I cant speak to the OP's intentions but I did look at the photos rather closely and I don't see anything odd at all. I have seen guns that have been cleaned and then artificially aged brown. I don't think that's the case here as when an artificial browning is applied its very difficult to get such a uniform appearance as the OP's pistol. Also cleaning removes the texture you see on old closet/barn found pieces and makes the metal slick in appearance. I see lots of texture here, the metal looks rough as I would expect it to be on a pistol that's sat unprotected for an extended period without being cared for.

Another observation is that all the screws are in really good shape and all pins are proud as I would expect them to be on an untouched pistol. The sideplate even looks like its never been off the pistol.

With that said, I don't believe its anywhere near an $8-10K pistol buts if I am correct its surely worth more than the $2000 range as quoted in post #2 and #3. As I said earlier, the only US Americans I have ever seen for sale at that price have been total basket cases that are buffed to death and have had a hacksaw taken to their barrels. Lets not forget this is not an ordinary American but one of only 1000 US issued guns.

Not trying to be difficult but I think we may have undershot the mark here and maybe that's why the OP bowed out as quickly as he did.

glowe · #20 01-20-2018, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

. . . Not trying to be difficult but I think we may have undershot the mark here and maybe that's why the OP bowed out as quickly as he did.

I have to agree with the earlier posts about the $2000 mark for a standard Model 3, 1st, because of the very statement you made about the finish. An all brown gun, whether original or replaced has 0% original finish, which places it in the FAIR category at best. Original finish is what makes the big dollars at sale and this one has none.

Guy quoted Supica's SCSW4, using Civilian Model 3, 1st values, which is the most accurate source for valuing these antique S&Ws. POOR - $900; FAIR - $1250; GOOD - $2500; etc. What the OP never stated was the serial number, but if the gun proves to be righteous, you can double the value of the Civilian Model 3, 1st, so your opinion could prove to be accurate if it is a real US Army specimen. We may never know . . .

model3sw · #21 01-20-2018, 07:03 PM

Hey, I'm out of this. I have no horse in this race so just gave you my honest gut opinion. As long as it is not MY money being paid, I really have no interest in what someone else suggests should be paid. In other words, to each his own.

MOREOVER, I would NEVER make an offer nor an appraisal with "digital images" ... NOT EVER !!

For a fair evaluation one must consider ... an accurate condition report by an "unbiased", licensed and well respected appraiser or evaluation expert.

Peace ... out !! (yes, I know that phrase is outdated).

DesmoEd · #22 01-21-2018, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

I have to agree with the earlier posts about the $2000 mark for a standard Model 3, 1st, because of the very statement you made about the finish. An all brown gun, whether original or replaced has 0% original finish, which places it in the FAIR category at best. Original finish is what makes the big dollars at sale and this one has none.

Guy quoted Supica's SCSW4, using Civilian Model 3, 1st values, which is the most accurate source for valuing these antique S&Ws. POOR - $900; FAIR - $1250; GOOD - $2500; etc. What the OP never stated was the serial number, but if the gun proves to be righteous, you can double the value of the Civilian Model 3, 1st, so your opinion could prove to be accurate if it is a real US Army specimen. We may never know . . .

Gary,

I agree that comparing a standard 1st Model with a US issued American is not a valid comparison.

Serial number looks like 1439 from the OP's pics, it was quoted as 1429 above but I don't think that's correct. The 3rd digit is somewhat unclear but I see the bottom loop of a 3 present. Also I think the cross bar is too high for the number to be a 2.

#1439 is listed in Charles Pate's book as a US issued American but there is no survivor info on it which is very interesting. As you said, we will probably never know.

DesmoEd · #23 01-21-2018, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

Hey, I'm out of this. I have no horse in this race so just gave you my honest gut opinion. As long as it is not MY money being paid, I really have no interest in what someone else suggests should be paid. In other words, to each his own.

MOREOVER, I would NEVER make an offer nor an appraisal with "digital images" ... NOT EVER !!

For a fair evaluation one must consider ... an accurate condition report by an "unbiased", licensed and well respected appraiser or evaluation expert.

Peace ... out !! (yes, I know that phase is outdated).

Sal,

I agree with everything above but with that said don't you think it was a little presumptuous to then say this:

"Likely dipped in rust remover chemicals (the neutralized) and / or powder blasted and / or brushed then coated with some sort of chemical or liquid was like an old treatment called "sweet shooter" (which reminds me of Johnson & Johnson liquid floor wax). The OPs pictures show what is basically a cleaned up "brown" gun. No where near the quality a serious collector would consider but seems "nice enough" at a glance. This is how most first time buyers get lured in."

That very well may be true but I don't believe any of us had enough info to make that determination.

He was a new guy posting pics of his new baby and he basically got cut off at the knees. And we all wonder why this is a dying hobby.

model3sw · #24 01-21-2018, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

Sal,

That very well may be true but I don't believe any of us had enough info to make that determination.

He was a new guy posting pics of his new baby and he basically got cut off at the knees. And we all wonder why this is a dying hobby.

Again, I have NO horse in this race but it seems YOU do ! Have at it.

It seems the way you defend this "hit and run" poster ... a guy with a lily of a US American that has been CLEANED, DERUSTED, and TREATED ( I never saw brown metal shine without a coating of "something") ... you two must be related.

If someone posts and asks a question here ... amongst the replies might be good natured people with wow words ... and, you will get the guys that have the experience.

Someone posting here should NOT ask a question that he might not want to know the answer to ... and then DISAPPEAR !

I have a suggestion ... contact me DIRECTLY, either via email or phone. I think we could have a much more concise and direct "conversation" if we go off the forum.

You can also send this US American it to Charlie Pate or Ed Cornett for an evaluation then try telling EITHER of THEM what you've already determined before you asked.

model3sw · #25 01-22-2018, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

Sal,

I agree with everything above but with that said don't you think it was a little presumptuous to then say this:

"Likely dipped in rust remover chemicals (the neutralized) and / or powder blasted and / or brushed then coated with some sort of chemical or liquid was like an old treatment called "sweet shooter" (which reminds me of Johnson & Johnson liquid floor wax). The OPs pictures show what is basically a cleaned up "brown" gun. No where near the quality a serious collector would consider but seems "nice enough" at a glance. This is how most first time buyers get lured in."

That very well may be true but I don't believe any of us had enough info to make that determination.

He was a new guy posting pics of his new baby and he basically got cut off at the knees. And we all wonder why this is a dying hobby.

DEAR Desmo ED. In keeping with the old mechanics proverb .... "open mouth, insert foot" .... pay close attention here.

This S&W Collectors forum and S&W Collectors Association is a tight knit of mostly honorable men and women with one common interest which is the collecting and preservation of S&Ws ... each member having his / her own collection specialties. AND ... we watch out for each other. We can rely on what a tenured or experienced fellow member advises as if it were gospel. To spend foolish money on a S&W that a fellow member (who has decades of knowledge and experience in collection) has advised differently would be just plain dumb.

We have many "discussions" on many different models here. With all the years of experience combined by knowledgeable collectors, someone new to this could not PAY to get this kind of inside information accumulated by decades (Centuries if you combine the experience of each member participating) of golden knowledge. We pool resources openly and truthfully. Even tenured members learn from the wealth of information available here. This goes way beyond books and other printed matter. Leaps and bounds beyond most other internet posts or blogs, many of which may be more worthy of print in the National Enquirer than in a book of facts and evidence.

It is the RULE (not the exception) that all members of the S&WCA be honest, forthright and honorable. While there may be a few, very few, exceptions to this rule ... the tenured members know who those few are, with new "exceptions" popping up every once in awhile, mostly because they just keep tipping their hands with hearsay and promotional baloney mainly to optimize their own, greedy, venues.

It is long known that " I " (along with many other tenured and novice members) truly appreciate all Model 3 variations. ABOVE ALL, the most "sacred" to me is the U.S. Cavalry contract Americans.

When I first started reporting newly discovered serial number to Col Pate, that was about 1995. Back then I had called Col Pate to report a cut barrel US American I found in Tulsa (probably the 3rd U.S. I had found to that date) he advised me that with this cut barrel US I just reported, now made a total of 53 of the 1000 that had surface over time up to that date. I have not recently inquired of Col. Pate how many he has on his list currently but with the advent of the Internet, I feel certain that many more have surfaced.

I must amend what I previously wrote, as follows :

I wrote: "I am not, absolutely, sure but i think 1429 was one of the SNs I owned or one of the SN of the stocks on that mix and match I owned."

I must now AMEND and CORRECT this statement, as follows, to verify that Serial Number: 1429 "is" one that I previously owned, and that I had reported to Col Pate about sometime around 1999 when I had first purchased it.

The official record indicates the following:

>>> US American #1429: Grips are #1995 with 5 struck out and 0 over it. Latch is S7. Cylinder is S8. Frame is G8. Rock Island Auction, 12/2007, lot #3470. <<<<

Additionally, this US American (as shown in photos by OP) had been re-worked sometime AFTER I presented it to Rock Island for Auction in 2007. In 2007 it was horribly rough sanded, now presents more "nicely" or finer sanded than when I owned it.

It certainly DOES have MISMATCHED, Frame, Cylinder, Barrel, latch and stocks. In fact, NO two parts are from the same gun. The 5 identifiable parts are from 5 DIFFERENT guns.

In other words it "IS", most certainly, a "put together" piece of junk !! While this might serve as a "representative" piece (something that in coin collecting we called "fillers"), no serious collector would touch it as it is so far removed from original, it is beyond the point of no return.

IIRC it sold, at RIA in 2007 when the prices were going through the roof on these ... for a price on par with the poor condition and mis-matched components. Very little money even though the market was hot. It was not and still IS NOT one a serious collector would purchase.

I attest that the record reported above on SN 1429 is accurate and factual.

.... are there any additional words of wit or further promotional hype you'd like to add now ???

JSR III · #26 01-23-2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

It certainly DOES have MISMATCHED, Frame, Cylinder, Barrel, latch and stocks. In fact, NO two parts are from the same gun. The 5 identifiable parts are from 5 DIFFERENT guns.

The unfortunate part of this to me is that it means that there are at least four guns out there with missing or replaced parts making them "mongrels" as well.

model3sw · #27 01-24-2018, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sspierce8

I also have one of the 800 blued ones. Supposedly issued to my great great great grandfather, but have not been able to confirm. Would love to learn more.

Please post some photos of your US American. I would like, very much, to see it. I'd like to find a "nice" U.S. American. I am not suggesting it has to be 100% blue but must have all original parts and matching assembly numbers, etc. The nicest, original, U.S. American I saw had about 60% blue coverage, crisp marks, with everything else correct but that was the one that would not letter as a U.S., the owner and a few other members, suggesting it was one of the several (of the 1000) that seem to have been mis-posted in the shipping record (typo) but that was a bit too "thin" for me to believe.

sspierce8 · #28 01-26-2018, 12:53 PM

It is perfect condition for its age. I was told by gunsmits that they would not be afraid to shoot today. It has never been tampared with.

sspierce8 · #29 01-26-2018, 12:57 PM

Well, if you're ever in Missouri let me know and you can check out mine. If you have ammo bring some with you

. Having trouble finding ammo at the local shops LOL.

sspierce8 · #30 01-26-2018, 01:14 PM

Here is a couple pics of mine. It is just like it came from S&W in 1870. Serial number 1687. Of course the bluing is almost gone, but mechanically perfect. I've tried to research who my great great great grandfather was, and I think it was a guy named Capt. George Leslie Browning, and the story from my grandmother was this gun was isued to him.

sspierce8 · #31 01-26-2018, 04:10 PM

Cant figure out how to post multiple pics

sspierce8 · #32 01-26-2018, 04:13 PM

Here's one more with serial number. I think I said 1687, its actually 1686.

sspierce8 · #33 01-26-2018, 04:15 PM

Just one more pic.

BRush · #34 01-26-2018, 05:05 PM

Below is No. 1476. As reported in Mr. Pate's book: Strong traces of blue, oil hole, no "U.S" stamp but has "A" and "P" stamps, original except cylinder catch has been replaced by one from a New Model 3.

DesmoEd · #35 01-26-2018, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

Again, I have NO horse in this race but it seems YOU do ! Have at it.

It seems the way you defend this "hit and run" poster ... a guy with a lily of a US American that has been CLEANED, DERUSTED, and TREATED ( I never saw brown metal shine without a coating of "something") ... you two must be related.

If someone posts and asks a question here ... amongst the replies might be good natured people with wow words ... and, you will get the guys that have the experience.

Someone posting here should NOT ask a question that he might not want to know the answer to ... and then DISAPPEAR !

I have a suggestion ... contact me DIRECTLY, either via email or phone. I think we could have a much more concise and direct "conversation" if we go off the forum.

You can also send this US American it to Charlie Pate or Ed Cornett for an evaluation then try telling EITHER of THEM what you've already determined before you asked.

There you go making assumptions again and you should know what they say about that...

I have no idea whom the OP is and am surely not related...

I think he may have been treated rather unfairly and was surely given bogus value info based on the pics he provided.

In one breath you say you will not make any valuation or buy decisions without your Dad giving you the ok and then in another you have the nerve to speculate the OP's gun has been chemically dipped and enhanced...

I was simply pointing out the obvious and then you attack me personally and insinuate I am in collusion with the OP

Ill say it again this time loud and clear, Its no wonder why this this hobby is dying

DesmoEd · #36 01-26-2018, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

DEAR Desmo ED. In keeping with the old mechanics proverb .... "open mouth, insert foot" .... pay close attention here.

This S&W Collectors forum and S&W Collectors Association is a tight knit of mostly honorable men and women with one common interest which is the collecting and preservation of S&Ws ... each member having his / her own collection specialties. AND ... we watch out for each other. We can rely on what a tenured or experienced fellow member advises as if it were gospel. To spend foolish money on a S&W that a fellow member (who has decades of knowledge and experience in collection) has advised differently would be just plain dumb.

We have many "discussions" on many different models here. With all the years of experience combined by knowledgeable collectors, someone new to this could not PAY to get this kind of inside information accumulated by decades (Centuries if you combine the experience of each member participating) of golden knowledge. We pool resources openly and truthfully. Even tenured members learn from the wealth of information available here. This goes way beyond books and other printed matter. Leaps and bounds beyond most other internet posts or blogs, many of which may be more worthy of print in the National Enquirer than in a book of facts and evidence.

It is the RULE (not the exception) that all members of the S&WCA be honest, forthright and honorable. While there may be a few, very few, exceptions to this rule ... the tenured members know who those few are, with new "exceptions" popping up every once in awhile, mostly because they just keep tipping their hands with hearsay and promotional baloney mainly to optimize their own, greedy, venues.

It is long known that " I " (along with many other tenured and novice members) truly appreciate all Model 3 variations. ABOVE ALL, the most "sacred" to me is the U.S. Cavalry contract Americans.

When I first started reporting newly discovered serial number to Col Pate, that was about 1995. Back then I had called Col Pate to report a cut barrel US American I found in Tulsa (probably the 3rd U.S. I had found to that date) he advised me that with this cut barrel US I just reported, now made a total of 53 of the 1000 that had surface over time up to that date. I have not recently inquired of Col. Pate how many he has on his list currently but with the advent of the Internet, I feel certain that many more have surfaced.

I must amend what I previously wrote, as follows :

I wrote: "I am not, absolutely, sure but i think 1429 was one of the SNs I owned or one of the SN of the stocks on that mix and match I owned."

I must now AMEND and CORRECT this statement, as follows, to verify that Serial Number: 1429 "is" one that I previously owned, and that I had reported to Col Pate about sometime around 1999 when I had first purchased it.

The official record indicates the following:

>>> US American #1429: Grips are #1995 with 5 struck out and 0 over it. Latch is S7. Cylinder is S8. Frame is G8. Rock Island Auction, 12/2007, lot #3470. <<<<

Additionally, this US American (as shown in photos by OP) had been re-worked sometime AFTER I presented it to Rock Island for Auction in 2007. In 2007 it was horribly rough sanded, now presents more "nicely" or finer sanded than when I owned it.

It certainly DOES have MISMATCHED, Frame, Cylinder, Barrel, latch and stocks. In fact, NO two parts are from the same gun. The 5 identifiable parts are from 5 DIFFERENT guns.

In other words it "IS", most certainly, a "put together" piece of junk !! While this might serve as a "representative" piece (something that in coin collecting we called "fillers"), no serious collector would touch it as it is so far removed from original, it is beyond the point of no return.

IIRC it sold, at RIA in 2007 when the prices were going through the roof on these ... for a price on par with the poor condition and mis-matched components. Very little money even though the market was hot. It was not and still IS NOT one a serious collector would purchase.

I attest that the record reported above on SN 1429 is accurate and factual.

.... are there any additional words of wit or further promotional hype you'd like to add now ???

The stock info is clearly listed in Pates book on #1429

Are you absolutely sure the OP's serial is #1429?

I stated in my earlier post before you attacked me that I thought it may be #1439

But you already have your mind made up and have shown yourself to be just the type that drives the young budding collectors away with your all knowing attitude.

BTW, hows your Daddy?

mrcvs · #37 01-26-2018, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

The stock info is clearly listed in Pates book on #1429

Are you absolutely sure the OP's serial is #1429?

I stated in my earlier post before you attacked me that I thought it may be #1439

But you already have your mind made up and have shown yourself to be just the type that drives the young budding collectors away with your all knowing attitude.

BTW, hows your Daddy?

I disagree with this 100%!

Model3sw is a wealth of information, especially when it comes to antique Smith & Wesson revolvers. I have learned a tremendous amount from him, he is always courteous to me, and not demeaning at all. And he has certainly not steered me away at all. I am 16 years younger than him, so maybe not a budding young collector at age 47, but I respect him and his vast wealth of knowledge. I respect him. You should, too.

DesmoEd · #38 01-26-2018, 11:03 PM

Respect is not earned by making false accusations

I'll say it again, are we 100% certain the OP's pistol is #1429?

model3sw · #39 01-27-2018, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesmoEd

The stock info is clearly listed in Pates book on #1429

Are you absolutely sure the OP's serial is #1429?

I stated in my earlier post before you attacked me that I thought it may be #1439

But you already have your mind made up and have shown yourself to be just the type that drives the young budding collectors away with your all knowing attitude.

BTW, hows your Daddy?

You actually showed up. I'm impressed. So all knowing are we that you obsessed for 3 days, contemplated what or "if" to reply ... to think up "this" ... crock ? Is this the best you got ?

I surely thought you'd be more imaginative than this or (at least) follow the rule about what a guy who cannot "put up" should do.

You wrote (verbatim) "BTW, hows your Daddy?" Where did THAT crack come from? What will you resort to next, mothers ? Contact me directly, off line. My Daddy won't be here to help me, as he (a WWII decorated veteran) died in 1999.

So low you sink to attack a deceased, honorable, decorated, WWII Veteran ? Who recommended you into the S&WCA ? I'd like to have a word with the member who sponsored you.

This is now way beyond what is considered pertinent data for this forum.

GO OFF LINE with this ... if you can do it without YOUR Daddy to help you think up some more witty wise cracks.

DesmoEd · #40 01-28-2018, 01:12 AM

S&W Model 3 First Edition .44 S&W american-img_4626-jpg

Lets compare the #2 on the 1st American serial #1025 with the 3rd digit in the OP's pic which is assumed to be #1429.

There is no way is that a 2 on the OP's pistol as the loop is no where near round and deep enough - its a 3 instead meaning that's not #1429 but #1439 just like I said above.

Pates book list #1439 as a known US issued 1st American but NO SURVIVOR INFO is listed meaning the OP's pistol could very well be a closet find

So much for jumping to conclusions and making assumptions...

new2S&W · #41 01-28-2018, 01:38 PM

For comparison, here is a closeup of my Jinks lettered American serial number 1030. Looking at the 3, you can draw your own conclusion.

DesmoEd · #42 01-28-2018, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2S&W

For comparison, here is a closeup of my Jinks lettered American serial number 1030. Looking at the 3, you can draw your own conclusion.

absolutely and thank you, that's proof positive the OP's pistol is #1439...

Do I hear crickets now?

DesmoEd · #43 01-28-2018, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by model3sw

You actually showed up. I'm impressed. So all knowing are we that you obsessed for 3 days, contemplated what or "if" to reply ... to think up "this" ... crock ? Is this the best you got ?

So whats your opinion now?

I don't sit behind a computer all day in my job and surely didn't need 3 days to reply anyway although I do tend to not shoot from the hip but instead try to analyze all the data especially before passing judgement on someone else's property.

I've said all along the OP's serial may not be #1429 but instead of actually taking consideration you simply sought to put me in my place and prove to everyone how right you are...and in the process you may have just put your own foot in your mouth

BTW, you know this but I was referring to your supposed mentors who you self proclaimed to not make any purchase decisions without. Maybe you should consult them before passing judgement as well. With that said, If your actual father was a WWII vet he has my utmost respect...

Now I'm done and I'll say it again, its no wonder this is a dying hobby...........................................................

JSR III · #44 01-29-2018, 10:46 AM

Quote:

absolutely and thank you, that's proof positive the OP's pistol is #1439...

I really don't think that one photo of an uncertain serial number clarifies the status of another unclear photographed serial number. My first impression is that somehow the gun butt got dinged and the lower half of the number was deformed and we may never know what it truly is.

That said, the OP came here seeking information about this piece and folks are therefore free to post their thoughts. Whether one likes, dislikes, approves of or disapproves of said comments is up to them. Certainly if I were looking to purchase a piece of history and especially one that could carry a large price tag, I would want as much information as possible and if that information contained negative comments, I would weigh them in with all of the rest.

When these threads become a personal contest of testosterone and the main subject becomes another poster's comments as opposed to the actual gun in question, then that is what I would consider as being why this is a dying hobby.

Evaluating a gun online through sometimes poorly lit photos is iffy at best. Unfortunately short of a hands on inspection, that is all that an OP gets when visiting here. One must always factor that in when asking for an open evaluation.

glowe · #45 01-29-2018, 01:49 PM

An upside down number, a vertical number, and the OPs fuzzy number solve nothing. At least rotate the numbers to compare, so here they are, straightened out, plus I added another one from a Model 3 I once owned. Does it look like a "3", yes. Is the number poorly stamped - yes. Is there a possibility it was changed or overstruck - yes. Are there altered guns out there with spurious numbers and US stamps - absolutely. All the members here are trying to state it the facts. Additional fact is that the gun has not been authenticated. The inside of the right stock has not been photographed.

This issue has become way too personal and there are only a handful of unpopular members who persist in this type of behavior on our Forum. What group do you want to be associated with down the line.

Statements like "crickets", "no wonder this is a dying hobby", "So much for jumping to conclusions and making assumptions... ", "BTW, hows your Daddy?", and "Respect is not earned by making false accusations" will not make you any friends here.

DesmoEd · #46 01-29-2018, 09:00 PM

Sorry guys but I didn't really care for being told that I had put my foot in my mouth in a most condescending way. There was no need for it as all I was doing is playing devils advocate.

You are right in that I should have taken the higher road and not responded as I did and for that I am sorry.

Now to the serial number, look at how deep and sloppy the bottom of the 3 is struck on #1030 and compare it to the OP's serial. There is too much coincidence to ignore. Couple that with the #2 in the serial I posted and you can see the top part of the loop is very round and it extends way down to the bottom of the digit which is not the case on the OP's pistol.

Id put money the OP's pistol was #1439.

Sometimes we approach things with a preconceived notion and make up our minds before actually letting the data speak to us. I believe thats what happen here.

Its not about being right, its about whats actually right in this case.

new2S&W · #47 01-29-2018, 11:15 PM

I'm not taking sides here by any means, just trying to present evidence that might help clarify confusion.
Here us a picture of the right grip serial number 1030 of my American.

glowe · #48 01-30-2018, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2S&W

I'm not taking sides here by any means, just trying to present evidence that might help clarify confusion.
Here us a picture of the right grip serial number 1030 of my American.

Wish we had that image for the OPs gun. There is a argument for a sloppy "2" or a sloppy "3", but looking even closer, there is a re-curve in the mid section of the "possible 2" on the OPs gun that does not match the 3, so . . . . . ? It is my understanding that there are a number of faked US Americans out there, so that is a real possibility as well. Wish there was a difference between the civilian and military, but never found any except for the serial number and "US" stamp.

I guess all this discussion boils down to the question - Is there is anyone out there that would take a chance on the gun for $10,000 or even $8000?

DesmoEd · #49 02-07-2018, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Wish we had that image for the OPs gun. There is a argument for a sloppy "2" or a sloppy "3", but looking even closer, there is a re-curve in the mid section of the "possible 2" on the OPs gun that does not match the 3, so . . . . . ? It is my understanding that there are a number of faked US Americans out there, so that is a real possibility as well. Wish there was a difference between the civilian and military, but never found any except for the serial number and "US" stamp.

I guess all this discussion boils down to the question - Is there is anyone out there that would take a chance on the gun for $10,000 or even $8000?

Who suggested the OP's pistol was an $8-10k example?

I see that nowhere in this thread, only the $2k value stated above by another and supported by you.

The US mark looks correct and has not been questioned by anyone as of yet. So you now think one number of a 4 digit serial is faked? Why fake one digit out of four on a correctly marked US gun? That makes no sense what so ever.

Personally if all correct I think it's a solid $4-5k pistol in the condition shown by the OP's photos.

Curious now that additional info has surfaced if you still think my Russian holster pictured in my vintage Western leather thread is still a 1970's holster?

DesmoEd · #50 02-07-2018, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by new2S&W

I'm not taking sides here by any means, just trying to present evidence that might help clarify confusion.
Here us a picture of the right grip serial number 1030 of my American.

New2S&W,

Sorry you got caught in the middle as you did nothing wrong.

You simply posted a picture showing a poorly struck #3 serial number that mirrored the number on the OP's pistol in the same range.

Congrats on having an authentic US American as that would be a centerpiece of most collections.